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The venue is a business. They want to make money. They're hiring you as a performer to bring people in the door to make more money.

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So you have to show them how you're going to help with that. And that's really where your branding, right?

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That's where an artist has to be known. People have to know who you are to come to your show.

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And people have to have like a little bit of name recognition to be like, oh, I think I've heard of them.

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I don't know where. Where have I seen them? I don't know, but I've heard the name. I'm curious. Let me go check it out.

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Yeah, those those numbers for venues, like if you're telling people you're bringing in a hundred, like you better bring in a hundred and one.

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Cutting Through Podcast.

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Today, we've got Mandy Kimlick with us, a music manager who has seen it all in the music business.

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From falling in love with a DJ to becoming a key player in the industry, Mandy's got some incredible stories and tips on making it in this crazy business.

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Get ready for some real talk about building your network, staying ahead in social media and the real deal on what it takes to cut through in today's music world.

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My name is Elliot Towsley and I am your host. Welcome to Cutting Through.

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You know, today, with you being a music manager and you having some experience at some pretty well known record labels, I think you have a lot of insight, obviously, that musicians can learn from.

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I've seen a lot of your content. It's really informative.

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So you're doing a good job of finding ways to become visible.

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So if you don't mind, can I like learn a little bit about you and how you got started in the music business?

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Yeah, absolutely. So I got started in the music business because I had like a crush on a DJ and I was like, oh, like, show me your music and like, what's your website?

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And he was like, I don't have a website. And I was like, oh, OK.

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Well, like, where can I like see a show? Where are you playing?

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He's like, oh, I'm not playing anyway. And I was like, oh, like, do you want help with that?

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And so I like started like making him a website.

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And then I was like, oh, like, how do you like book DJs?

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Like, I don't know how to do it. I offered to do it. I don't know.

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I better learn real quick. So I like Googled how to book a musician.

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And then I just started like mass reaching out and I just started like snowballing into like massive, like cold emailing and just like hard networking and like old school networking, which was like just like for me, cold emailing.

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Like I didn't know anyone. Like I was a teacher at the time.

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So I was in a second grade classroom. My network was an education and with like I could get a great reading tutor.

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But that's all I knew. But I also knew how to learn.

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And that I think is so, so important.

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So once I started like learning how to do it, I just started applying the skills I was learning.

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But I was learning through a business lens. I wasn't coming in as an artist saying like, how do I get famous?

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How I was coming in like really specific, like how do I write a pitch?

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How do I like what's a captivating like email hook?

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What should I be putting in the subject line?

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So I was like Googling really niche things, which ended up really snowballing right into like really great business strategy.

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And so I was applying business skills to the music industry and created a really like successful business.

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And now I'm like branching out from just managing into doing education about the music industry,

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which takes my formal background in education and applies it as well.

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So it's been kind of like a wild ride, a wild transition.

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But it's how I got into it.

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Hell yeah. Well, I think I mean, what a good way to get into it where I think a lot of people get into it,

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where they think they see an opportunity to like make money or to maybe take advantage of somebody.

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You know, it seems like you kind of got into it for the right reasons where granted it started with a crush, which is funny.

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But you like you wanted to help. Are you still did you ever get with the DJ?

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I'm married to him now. He's my man.

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That's awesome. Well, congratulations. What a great story.

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Yeah, isn't it like it's so cute to like it's our also our love story.

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But I also think that's also driven a little bit of our success is because you never work harder for someone else than you work for yourself.

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That's one of my philosophies. And when I was like working for him, it was essentially like working for me because we became a couple.

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And then as like a married couple, you know, you're it's your job. It's your business.

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Like if you're not going to grind and do it, like you're not going to be able to sustain yourself.

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So, you know, you got to keep going.

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Well, with that, I think you bring a good point where, you know, it's say like as a boss of a company, it's hard to expect your employees to be doing the same amount or to care the same amount as you do, because it's yours.

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Have you noticed that like with other artists you work with or maybe just with other managers and like their situations with artists?

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Do you find that one of the hurdles managers have to get over is setting that expectation where an artist might expect them to be going as hard into their business as they are?

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Or is that like how does that usually go?

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Yeah, I think work ethic and finding people who have similar ethos in their like hustle and work is extremely hard.

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And I think that's really what separates really successful people from people who essentially like I hate to say, like, don't make it.

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But don't make and I don't mean don't make it as artists, but don't make it in the industry as a successful business.

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So I think finding really successful people is hard.

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So it's important, though, and it's something that we look for.

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And it's one of the reasons that I structured my business model, how I do, which is on the education front, because so many artists were coming to me for management.

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But I'm like, OK, like, what's your release strategy?

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What songs you have to release? I don't want to release music right now.

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And I said, well, there's nothing to manage, but they there's a lot of stuff they could do on their own and get started.

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And then management would be possible for them.

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So it was like that there was a gap there.

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So because of that, I was having trouble finding people who shared that ethos.

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I was like, let me go in and educate people what that next step is.

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So, yeah, like it is hard to find people like that.

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And we've done hired work where we've hired PR agents for, you know what I mean, or hired other companies to try out marketing strategies.

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And I've always been like, I think we can do it better ourselves or like we've had like similar results.

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Like we don't have the connections, but man, like they weren't sending as many emails as I would have.

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So in the end, I think that's one of the reasons like our company has grown and why like in management,

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I have my hand in a little bit of everything because in the end, I was like, I think I can work a little harder and do it a little better because of that.

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Yeah, you're right. It is absolutely hard to find because I think there is a lot of talent,

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but there's certainly not as much hard work behind that.

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Or I think a lot of artists mistake the hard work in, well, I've put a lot of hard work in making the music, my job's over.

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Like now it's up to the manager, it's up to Spotify, it's up to whoever.

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Do you find the gist of like my podcast here, quote unquote, is I call it cutting through.

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I want to help people cut through the bullshit.

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We all know there's a ton of it out there, especially in the music marketing channel.

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There's a lot of people, there's a lot of managers or marketing people or gurus.

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I think there's a lot of people out there who even if they have good intentions are leading artists astray a little bit

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and just kind of like, oh, all you need to do is this one little trick and here you go.

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Get it in my master class.

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What is something that you see now that you've dove into this social media world and content,

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you must be seeing a lot of other people making similar content.

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What is some of the bullshit that you see from a manager perspective?

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Yeah, I think one of the biggest things I try and tell people to help cut through that bullshit

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that I see a lot is people are saying things and they haven't had the experience to back up what they're saying.

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So they're just kind of like regurgitating what they've heard.

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And then you're playing the telephone game because every time you say it, you're changing it slightly at some point.

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So I always say like, look at the source, like who is giving you the information?

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Because if they have a resume where they have worked with labels and they have worked in whatever your niches

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and whatever you need help in, like, yeah, they're good people to work with.

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If they've been successful, like follow them.

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And there are a lot of people there, but there's a whole lot more who are just repeating that.

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And that message again, like changes a little bit every time.

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And also, like, I don't want to listen to you about releasing music if you haven't released music.

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You just don't know it.

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Like, you can't know it as well as someone who's done it.

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So look at the source.

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I think that's really important.

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What are some things that, like, if you're trying to help an artist, say, find a qualified or a good manager,

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like, what are some of the things that you would maybe tell an artist, hey, OK, look, a good manager has generally these three things going?

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OK, that's a really good question.

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Like, what's a good manager?

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I would look for someone who continues to stay relevant in what's happening with social media because things are constantly changing.

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Like, algorithms are constantly changing purposely, like every few months.

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So if you're not continually monitoring that, you're going to be outdated so quickly on the marketing side.

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And social media is, like, so underrated right now for artists to use.

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So I'd say someone who watches that and has an ear for that is really important because it keeps you relevant.

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I would also say someone who's organized, managers are organizing your company, you as an artist or a company, and they're essentially organizing you.

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So that is a really good skill to have.

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And I would say someone who you work well with and you like how they deliver messages because they are guiding you and going to tell you hard things.

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They're going to tell you exciting things.

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And it's not always going to be easy.

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So someone that you, like, can vibe with in a way and feel safe with because I think, gosh, we talk about, like, mental health a lot for artists.

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But on the team side, right, it's really important that you have a safety net in your team for that.

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So I think those are three things that are important to look for in managers.

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What do you think?

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I think those are all key.

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That's a good question.

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Well, the third one is what struck me the most.

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Like, I really think, say you've got the first two boxes checked, but just for some reason, it's just not a good fit.

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Like, the fit is so important because I think with anything in the music industry, there's no one right way to do pretty much anything.

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Yeah, I think it's really interesting how Mandy ended up on the business side of the music industry.

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It goes to show there's no one set way you can get into the business.

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But I think it does show a trend of some of the guests that I've had.

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And they ended up getting decent skill wise at music marketing because they needed to, not necessarily because they wanted to.

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You know, in this case, she fell in love with the DJ and was like, I want to help you grow your business.

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I guess someone needs to help you market.

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So I guess I'll learn it.

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And, you know, similar to like if you're an artist yourself, you know, you start marketing your music because you have to and you don't really know what you're doing, but you start to learn.

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And this is a great example of there's no one set way to make it into the business.

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A lot of like what a manager, in my perspective, like is kind of there to help the artist do is find what works best for them and lead the artist on this experiment of sorts and be willing to kind of swing and miss a few times in order to find what does work best for this artist.

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And like a really good manager might have 10 different clients and like they're not using the exact same recipe for each one, especially safe.

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I've got one artist who's a country artist and the other one is a hip hop artist.

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You can't just use the same recipe again and again.

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So like that goes part with what you said, they have to be able to adapt because breaking an artist 18 months ago and breaking an artist now are two very different ballgames.

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So I do think there's a lot of folks out there that I see online who are like are trying to market themselves as a manager or something to help an artist.

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And it's like they have something where like, oh, yeah, I worked at Def Jam in 1999, like I am therefore a good source now.

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What are some things that maybe you can look for?

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Because like working at Def Jam could mean like you were the president or maybe you were the janitor and not to knock those jobs, but just like, you know, working at Def Jam in and of itself doesn't mean that you're going to be an amazing manager.

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Yeah, and something that I have learned to ask, which I used to not because I was like, I'm sure like, is this an okay question to ask?

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But I ask people now what their network is, if we're kind of going into a business transaction, and I think that's a responsible question to ask.

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And I think one of the things I like you said, there's no right way to do anything, especially now in like the business world as it is.

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You can be so creative and do it like I never knew before because I was not an entrepreneur, like you can carve out your business any way you want.

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There are so many ways to make money.

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That being said, I don't necessarily I'm not like who all do you know, but I will ask who do you regularly work with?

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Because I think it is if they if they say, oh, yeah, like I used to work at Sony and now I work here or like, yeah, but I'm really good friends with, you know, Sirius XM or whatnot, like those are really advantageous relationships.

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And that's enticing in a business transaction.

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And I believe in transparency in business.

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I think like, why not like that's, it's kind of like so many people are secretive with like how to do things and it's like just be transparent like you can buy the service, this is the cost of it like it makes it so much clearer.

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And I think we're getting to a consumption key part you know what I mean in our culture where people want that transparency.

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So, when like looking to see qualifications, I just kind of ask people now like straight up like what's your network like who do you regularly work with tell me about what you've done in the last like year.

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And I also kind of timeframe it to like what have you done in the past year.

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Because you're right there's so many people especially I feel like, not to bash radio but I feel like a lot of radio connections are like, very like, oh yeah I worked here so you know what I mean I'm like well yeah but there's like the been through like three different

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program directors like your connections aren't relevant anymore.

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And I think it can help people save money if they're paying for service and someone's connections aren't relevant to their niche or their genre. I think that's something to look forward to is, is their background relevant to your genre.

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I think you're totally right we're like, folks like this especially in the music space are trying to kind of, you know, make themselves look better.

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And I think, instead, if they were just straightforward and said hey yeah I worked at Sirius XM 10 years ago. Yes, I'm sure the industry has changed but I do have some insight to offer right away now it's not so shady, you're not trying to it's not defensive

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if you still have the expertise, it might be like, it might not be from yesterday, which is okay but instead of just kind of laying it out like it is, they filter it with a bunch of bullshit about how their Dr.

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Dre's cousin or their neighbor works at Enterscope or, oh I did a song with Waka Flocka in 2002.

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Like, there is a lot of embellishment, exaggeration, especially in the music space. And instead of trying to because as soon as somebody finds out that you're a little bit full of shit, they don't believe anything you're saying.

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And if like this, this made up manager in my mind was more like yeah I used to know this person I've met a few times he gave me some good advice, but just like giving it to him straight.

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Instead of being like oh this will make me feel cool and look better he'll think I'm a better manager because I bumped into 50 cent once on the airport.

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Transparency is so important for like building relationships, and I think of like that's essentially like what you want in the music industry is relationships but you're right it's so full of bullshit and I can't even tell you the crazy shit people told me like, oh well like, yeah, my song they they wanted to sign it was being considered for and I'm like, okay well that tells like it wasn't good enough.

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They didn't want it like you know what I mean like in this like I almost got chosen for the travel sports team like it doesn't you didn't do it like don't leave your pitch with that.

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Yeah, put yourself in another way.

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Well actually that's a good transition so I think you know as a manager you're helping DJs and artists book shows like what is like an approach, because at the beginning most artists lead with something like, hey here's my song.

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I promoted it here it's really good. Give me a chance on Friday, like let me play a show like have you like I try to tell artists that like you got to lead with something more like hey I already have 500 listeners in your city like if I promoted it I bet I could get 100 people there.

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Here's my music by the way, like, is there an approach that you like to recommend artists try to take.

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Yeah, there are a few I've actually taught a class on like writing pitches specifically because I think it is so so important and writing skills can like take you leaps and bounds ahead in this industry in any industry.

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And I think one thing for like writing is number one, keep it concise and short like people do not want your backstory, you are taking up their time by having them open your email be respectful and keep it brief.

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So, like three sentence like super short. And then I always say you want to lead with something right that kind of will like get people's attention, a hook typically that tends to be your biggest number or like stat of some sort.

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But because you want to book and play a show like we also want to aim it at live performance if possible. So if you've played in that area if you have again like you said significant numbers on songs like pick one of those.

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Put your hook in right that's your hook your sales, and then like would love to find out what your openings are. Here's my contact information and include your music like you said, at the bottom your music's added bonus like yes, if they get there.

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If they get there, let them open your music. Yeah. Well, I think a thing about a venue in like, unfortunately, for musicians. It's not just, oh yeah, if you're super talented they'll definitely give you a chance.

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They are running a business and a venue in particular would rather have if if an artist came out there and played a dial tone into the microphone, but they sold every ticket, and the people there bought a bunch of drinks and food that does the venue owner really care if

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they thought the performance was good. Yeah, they don't. Now say vice versa. They don't care and you could be the most talented piano player since Beethoven. But if you sell seven tickets at the show, the venue might be like wow you're you're really talented but hey, I can't book you again because I didn't make any money.

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And it's unfortunate, but I think like you have said here today like you've got to approach it as a business and like your talent. This isn't America's Got Talent, right? So like your talent isn't necessarily what a radio station or somebody with a big YouTube channel or a venue.

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Your talent isn't in and of itself what they're interested in. So like showing something that you can bring to the table other than talent to a venue owner. Hey, I'll promote this for a month. I bet I can get 200 people to buy tickets. Here's examples of shows that I've already pulled off.

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Yes. That's, you know, like you said, this is about live performance. You want to show you have proof of concept. No one's going to feel comfortable giving you $1,000 to perform and then say, oh, this is your first time. Great.

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And also to know how to scale your venues and that's something I've learned booking like the first like venue I booked was a really great one and we were opening but it was also like I had no idea like what a hundred people look like you know what I mean in a room.

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What a 600 room looks like so when they're like how many tickets can you sell I was like 5050 that's huge and I was like scraping everyone I knew to get 30 it is hard to get people in the door.

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So when artists like give numbers like I can get this many people in the door, your numbers better be spot on for that, because if not you false advertised yourself, and then you lose that is that transparency gone they're not going to book you again you didn't make

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money.

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But like you said, the venue is a business, they want to make money, they're hiring you as a performer to bring people in the door to make more money. So you have to show them how you're going to help with that.

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That's really where your branding right that's where an artist has to be known people have to know who you are to come to your show.

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And people have to have like a little bit of name recognition to be like oh I think I've heard of them I don't know where where have I seen them I don't know but I've heard the name I'm curious, let me go check it out.

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Yeah, those, those numbers for venues like if you're telling people you're bringing in 100 like you better bring in 101, like, those numbers in but yeah, they, they got to know they're going to make money with you.

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Do you get a lot of pushback from artists, say at the very beginning the first handful of performances they're doing likely aren't paid much, if at all. You get a lot of pushback from artists who are like I'm not doing that like I'm only doing it if I get paid.

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Yeah, and, and you know what, I am all for like, I'll do, I still push artists to do shows for free at the audiences there if it is our prime market and we are playing for an hour to our prime audience.

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Hell yeah we'll go do that show like that's great advertising like shows are some of the best ways to get your name out there as an artist because people are having an experience with you.

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So that means there's going to be a memory attached. That means they might follow you on social media afterwards like that's what you want. So I think like on that front.

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Did you always do shows for free. No, but if it's helpful. Absolutely. And I always say think of it like an internship like there's a lot of industries where internships get your foot in the door, and those are unpaid.

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Sometimes you do an unpaid show as part of an internship to make a relationship. So you are asked back, or because you're getting in front of 100 or more prime fans right you want to like have a stage in front of them.

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So, I'm all for the free shows, when it makes sense. Yeah, big time. What about you, like paid. Oh, yeah, if it makes sense like if someone's like, if this bar or club is going to be busy with or without you playing there, like say it's just a busy Nashville is a great

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All those places on Broadway, none of those bands are paid. They're there, but there's still a line of bands out the door waiting to play there simply because they want the exposure and the audience right there.

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And I think absolutely you should do free gigs, if it makes sense, make it be helpful like bring a photographer, bring a videographer and maybe you don't get paid, but maybe you can sell merch.

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Maybe you get the chance to shake 50 people's hands and get a picture and go like this with your camera guy and say yep I'll send it to you tag me on Instagram, like you can make it worthwhile.

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And like, you don't need to do that for three years. But like, I think the more you can, if you can show, say you did a couple of free shows, but you got a lot of great photos, you got a lot of good video.

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Now you have a proof of concept that you can put on a fun show. So you can say, hey, venue number three, here's everything I've already done, but this time I want $500 because look, I've proven I can do this.

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I've proven that I should be paid. It's not just this my music's really good. Therefore, you should pay me. I don't know what my set is. I've never performed before. I don't know if I need a DJ.

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I don't know if I need lights. I don't know how many microphones I need, but you should give me $1,000 no matter what because I'm good.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that kind of goes back to like artists don't know the business side of it, right? Because the business side is that's not a good sale.

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No, that's not a good sell yourself, right? And is great is like networking and doing the free shows to network in to broker in that is really important is you and that's one way to do it.

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There's lots of like you said, there's lots of ways to get into an industry, you can have a lot of money, you can know people, you can network in, you can, you know what I mean, have a viral success and get in.

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That's rare. But you know, there's lots of ways to do it. But yeah, free show. I mean, yeah, if your audience is going to be there, go do the show and then make content with it.

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An hour's worth of video can be content for months. You can use it. You can reuse content for releases. You can put it in your press kit.

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You should be sending a snippet of it when you're sending booking exactly like you said, now you can charge and you have something to show them. This is what a show looks like.

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This is what you can expect. This is the package deal. It's professional.

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But I think some people just don't even know like think to do that and that comes down to not knowing they need to which kind of to me as I think that education background, they just don't know how to do it yet.

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So, but man, yeah, there's a lot of people who don't know how to do it.

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Well, like I think because music has become much easier to make and it's now so it's as easy as it's ever been to have the chance to like make it in the music industry or to actually like release music.

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So there are more people than ever making music trying to gain access to this industry and then there becomes a whole secondary industry of people who are managers who want to be marketers or whatever.

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But whether it's ignorance or they think they're like above learning these things because I think there's a small amount of musicians who because they think they're talented, they're above learning how to do this.

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They don't need to market. They shouldn't have to. They shouldn't have to play free shows.

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Yeah, so it's just there's a there's a lot of bullshit that we need to help folks cut through.

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There is there is and you know, there's a time and there's ego then involved.

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You know what I mean? There's and I also think to like almost all artists are creatives and creatives think creatively.

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You know what I mean? Out of the box, which means sometimes like the logical steps, right?

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What seems like logical business steps? They're like out of the box thinking like we can put the pieces together like this.

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And it's like we got to go back like that's where you get a team.

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But the artist ego sometimes has to be settled before it can receive information.

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And that that's a tricky tightrope to walk to.

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And like I like I started I started in the music like from the artist side, like booking my own shows up in New Hampshire.

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So like there wasn't much going on. So like trying to book a show wasn't necessarily easy.

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And like we never did anything super big, but like I learned how to go to a studio, make a decent sounding song,

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learn how to book a show, play a show, figure out how to make money, like the small things.

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So I'm coming from the artist perspective.

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And over time, I kind of just gravitated more toward the business.

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And now I have like the luxury of hindsight going back. I should have done this.

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I should have done that now that I have this the business perspective.

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But it is interesting now that I am more on the business side than I am artist.

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Like I've removed the emotion and my ego from like my former music business.

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And it's so clear to be like, I should have done this.

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Like I was an idiot. Like I should have done that. I should have done this.

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And that is a tightrope to walk.

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Like at what point do you think ego, because like you need some sort of ego to make this music

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and put yourself out there in the first place. But at what point is it like too much?

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Yeah. I mean, gosh, that's a deep question, right? Like how much is too much ego?

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Yeah. I think something that is important to remember is something that we talk a lot about in our household

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is like there's the artist and there's the person.

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And the ego comes when the artist is performing, right? Or in business transactions, right?

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Like when I am like teaching, I'm performing and I need to be, right?

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That's like what I'm up there to do is like capture people's attention, hold their attention.

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When you're performing, you have to hold attention.

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There is some ego, like you said, that needs to be in there to keep that and want that in the first place.

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But then keep that attention. And then, but if your ego is stopping you from growing,

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I think that's where it becomes an issue. If it hinders your growth.

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And I think it can sneak up and do that really quickly for people and in many, many different ways.

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I think when I was like 18, 19, the group I was in, this was like even before Instagram,

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like it was only Facebook, like in SoundCloud and like that's like it and YouTube.

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And so we started, we had a couple of videos get like, you know, two or three hundred thousand hits on YouTube,

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which in New Hampshire was like a lot. And we were all on this bubble college campus.

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And man, let me tell you how quickly that ego went to my head.

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In literally like in a matter of three or four months,

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we went from like no one knowing us at all to like having a semi viral video locally.

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And then like because I'm 18, I'm walking around like I think I'm the shit now because like the artist had like success.

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But like the person, I'm still just a kid in going to English class at school.

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And it was really hard to like have both.

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And I definitely struggled. And sometimes like that ego creeped up and I was like, I'm no way.

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You know me. You've seen my video.

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Like, do you recognize me now?

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Like, I definitely did that and like thought that there were definitely moments where like I convinced myself

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that I was like entitled to some sort of like special treatment or like something just because I'm dumb.

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Because I'm dumb. I'm 18.

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I'm getting a little bit of success for people who like don't know me personally, know my music.

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So quick.

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And really is it's fun. And if you know what I mean, and it is something too.

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I think like you have to play in that space a little bit of like who your performance character is and who that artist is.

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And man, people want that from artists though.

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Like when we are out, like when we're out, like because I know Teddy, because he's my husband and an artist,

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like people want the Teddy beats.

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They want the they want the DJ who like wants to party and like go hard.

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And it's like, yeah, that's really like fun.

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But it's like that's not appropriate everywhere, too.

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You know what I mean? Right. So but people expect that from artists.

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So I think of like like really, you know what I mean?

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I mean, like Drake, like he's out. People want that from him all the time.

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Like, of course, your ego is going to creep up.

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Like people are seeking that out of you, like seeking that performer piece out all the time.

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So it's hard. But I think, you know, find a strong team, find a strong support that you can check that with and balance that.

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But it's also a fun space to play in, too.

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Like it's fun to like have all eyes and attention on you.

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Like I like that. Who doesn't like that at times?

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Like and like enjoy it. I think if artists should enjoy it, like enjoy it when you're performing, enjoy it when you're meeting people.

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And then when you're off the stage and walking out the door, make sure you thank every one of that staff who made that event possible for you.

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And then you're done. And then be what I mean. You're back to you.

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But, you know, every personality is different, too.

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So some people don't have that self-regulation to bring that ego.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I think having someone that you trust in your team somewhere or whether it's your mom or whoever it is, being open to hearing that, like, would have done me some good.

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Yeah, not everyone wants to hear it either. You know, people are at different spaces in that mindfulness.

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You know what I mean? And like they're even recognition of having an ego.

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Some people don't even realize they have an ego and it's just their way of navigating the world.

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And it's just those aren't people I choose to work with, you know?

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Well, and then the thing is, like, one of the things I struggled with back then was maybe even if I was starting to think, hey, like, maybe I shouldn't do that.

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The thing was, when I applied that to music, it worked. It was just I was playing shows.

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I was making a few thousand dollars as an 18 year old, like playing my own music.

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So, like, in a way, I was kind of like, no, like, I'm right.

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Like, I should continue to be this douche.

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And it was this weird because like the thing was like in a college bubble environment, like it was like Friday through Monday morning, I was like this artist, fun, partier guy.

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And then Monday, I'm in your class. And now, like when I just want to kind of be Elliot, you expect the party guy to be in there.

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And it was this like weird like I didn't necessarily I didn't necessarily know it at the time.

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But in hindsight, I can totally see where I was having this like constant like identity crisis of like, well, Monday and Tuesday, I'm Elliot.

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And then on the weekend, I'm this like artist dude playing shows and then like somewhere in between.

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It was such a mess. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, yeah, I think that's true for a lot of people now just through like even I see like Instagram versus reality.

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I think now like, right, a lot of people are seeing like a shift between like maybe their lens and and what they're showing and then versus what they're feeling.

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So I think like it's an interesting topic, you know what I mean?

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And also to think about like then artists have the performance side with ego to drive to.

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But yeah, and if I can offer artists a piece of advice, like one of the things was like I was making music for a while and I knew there were people who like didn't fuck with it.

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And like, you know, actively give us kind of shit online or whatever.

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And it's like that comes with the territory.

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But then all of a sudden, when we started getting more popular, like elsewhere, all of a sudden, some of these people were now like jumping on the bandwagon.

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And I remember being like, no, screw you guys.

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Like you had your chance to like be my fan and you were a dick.

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So like, screw you.

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Instead, I should have swallowed my pride or my ego and just been like, thank you.

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I'm glad you're late to the party, but at least you came.

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Yeah. And if I had done that, I know there was a lot of people that because I was totally maybe I didn't say it, but I acted as if I'm like, screw you, man.

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Like you had your chance.

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Yeah, but I understand that.

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I mean, I've lost friendships because I've had people like come to me like kind of recently have been like, yeah, like we like when you told us you guys were like trying to be a DJ, we were like, what?

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And I'm like, that's mean not to support your fun.

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Like if you're in real estate, you would be like, yeah, you're going to try and sell houses loser.

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You know what I mean?

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Be like, oh, yeah, go kill it in real estate.

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Like go kill it as an artist.

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I understand the not one like you just want to be in on it now because it's cool and it's successful.

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But like you didn't believe in me to begin with.

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And you were really mean about it.

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Like people don't realize how hurtful that is.

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Those are people not only like just stay out of it that I don't need your negative opinion.

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Like you don't need to put it like and like tell me you had it like just keep it inside.

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But I get it from that end.

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And those are just people I've decided like you don't need to be in my circle.

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My energy like you cannot like that's just not energy.

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I went around and it's just energy that we've said.

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No, thank you, too.

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Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of just like human nature, I guess, is part of it.

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It's like because like no one wants to be the first person at the party and then no one shows up.

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So then like it's almost like if you're cheerleading for your friend who's making music and then like they stink and they never do anything with it.

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Then like you might think that you look like a fool for supporting them.

347
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Or like if somebody starts a company and you're like, whoa, go support my friend's company.

348
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,000
And then two months later, they like, you know, they're out of business.

349
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000
I think some people are afraid of looking foolish for whatever reason.

350
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,000
Yeah, which is which is dumb.

351
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,000
I don't think anyone notices.

352
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,000
But it's just so much easier to be like, oh, there's already 100 people at the party.

353
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,000
Sweet. I'll go. Yeah.

354
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:36,000
You know, oh, there's 100 people are already retweeting or posting your content and like supporting you.

355
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Oh, OK, I guess I can show up now because now it looks good.

356
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,000
Yeah. And I'm not worried how it looks for me because now I just blend in with the crowd.

357
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's ego on the other end. Right.

358
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:53,000
That's like another for you. Like I'm not going to like or support or like take the time to.

359
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,000
But then once they're like, you said, social proof, like everyone's on the bandwagon.

360
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Oh, me too. But it's like you haven't been there.

361
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,000
Which, like you said, yes, I'm glad you're on the bandwagon.

362
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,000
Like that's the that's the duality of it.

363
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:14,000
But I guess when it's from people that you have relationships with and people that you have like friendships with,

364
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:19,000
you don't have to love the music like it might not be your style of music.

365
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,000
But I expect my friends to support me like that's a friend expectation I have.

366
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,000
So if that's not the case, like then, yeah.

367
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,000
Anyone else? If I don't know you, get on the bandwagon whenever. Sure.

368
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:40,000
Right. Right. Like I got to the point where my friend and I were making music together and a lot of our friends,

369
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,000
they didn't like support us, which didn't necessarily bother us.

370
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,000
It's that they like some of them like actively rooted against us.

371
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,000
So just being like, oh, your music's dumb. These guys are idiots. Like, whatever.

372
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,000
So I don't even necessarily need you to prop me up and support me.

373
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,000
I can get that from somewhere. I just don't need you to root against me.

374
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,000
Yeah. And like it's the same.

375
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,000
Like you said, if you started you are a real estate, you're starting a real estate agent.

376
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,000
Maybe I think it's dumb that you're doing it, but I'm not going to be like, oh, you're an idiot.

377
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,000
Like he's going to fail. Yeah.

378
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,000
I got to at least be like, good for you, man.

379
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,000
Like I appreciate the hard work, even if it's not in something I respect.

380
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:25,000
I see you're working hard. So like for something with music or like say,

381
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,000
it's almost if someone was like, I'm going to go to L.A. and be an actor.

382
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,000
Everyone's like, oh, you're an idiot. Like, yeah, I know.

383
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,000
Probably. You know what I mean? But also like, yeah, yeah.

384
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,000
But I think there's a lot of mystery around the music industry.

385
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,000
There's people don't know a lot about it.

386
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,000
And what people do know is very antiquated.

387
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:55,000
And so when people say like, I'm going to be a musician, I'm going to work in music, it seems impossible.

388
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,000
It seems like unattainable. And that's not the truth of it.

389
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,000
Like there's so much space in the industry and so many avenues.

390
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,000
But when you don't know that, right.

391
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:11,000
Then people doubt it, too, because they're thinking like, yeah, you can't like no one makes it in the music industry.

392
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,000
Like you certainly can't. And it's. Yeah, right.

393
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,000
And like there are a million lanes in any like any other industry.

394
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,000
There's big corporations. There's small and there's big companies.

395
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,000
There's entrepreneurs there. You name it.

396
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,000
There's like every business model in there.

397
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:36,000
But and I think if people knew that, maybe they'd be more apt to support because they would say like there it is.

398
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000
There's lots of space. There's lots of possibilities.

399
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Like go live your dream. But if people don't know, you know, that's not educator background.

400
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,000
Like people don't know about it.

401
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,000
So then it becomes unattainable.

402
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,000
And then people are mean. Yes.

403
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:02,000
Well, you make a great point, like especially let's view it from the business lens.

404
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,000
Like you don't need to become Coca-Cola to like have a beverage company.

405
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000
There are so many different levels.

406
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:15,000
And like I think you're right when a casual Joe Schmo person, you tell them, hey, yeah, I want to be a musician.

407
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:22,000
They think that you think you're trying to become Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift or Drake.

408
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,000
They don't see the guy that's here that just gets to play.

409
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,000
Oh, I play in Florida. I played 40 shows a year and I make great money.

410
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,000
And like I just play on the beach and I do Jimmy Buffett covers like whatever.

411
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,000
Whatever. Like maybe you don't like they don't see that.

412
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,000
All they see is the cream at the top and they think you're not you're not going to be Ed Sheeran.

413
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,000
You fool. Yeah.

414
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,000
I think this is a good point that whether you like it or not,

415
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:58,000
the evolving nature of the music industry has gotten to the point where you have to play the social media game.

416
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,000
There is no way around it.

417
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,000
Unfortunately, it is the game.

418
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:14,000
You have to play it and not driving engagement on social media and streaming platforms one way or another.

419
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,000
You have to be driving engagement consistently.

420
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,000
Not doing so is not an option.

421
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:31,000
The only artists who tend to get away with that are the folks who had a big audience before this was the status quo.

422
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,000
If you do not have a big audience today,

423
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:42,000
you can not obtain one without consistently driving engagement across social media.

424
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,000
Whether we like it or not, that's where the eyeballs are.

425
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,000
That's where the listeners are.

426
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:54,000
And we have to simply be where the attention is.

427
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,000
You know, it's sad that people think that.

428
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,000
But it's also like some of it is like kind of the music industry's fault for being secretive.

429
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:10,000
Like if you're not going to tell people how to excessively like be in the industry, then like people don't know about it.

430
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:19,000
But I think it's really cool though that now there's like a new wave coming in and out with social media with this information.

431
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Like, you know, I just recently got on social media for myself as a manager.

432
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:30,000
And then I found like you and I'm finding other like people who are good and know what they're talking about.

433
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:38,000
And I'm like, this is really cool that now people are starting to like teach about the industry and teach not business,

434
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:48,000
but it's music business and not music business in a college setting where you have to pay forty thousand dollars a year to attend in a social media.

435
00:47:48,000 --> 00:48:00,000
It's a free platform like people can get a college education worth of information now on social media for free.

436
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:10,000
And then people like us are sharing it. And it's such a cool way to like keep the community going and to like help the industry.

437
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:26,000
So I feel like really proud that there are people like us sharing the information and making it accessible for people to so they can have viable careers and and live out their dreams and, you know, find their space.

438
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,000
I think you're doing a great job of getting your message across.

439
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:35,000
And I think when someone enters the social media game, it is so tempting.

440
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,000
I'll say the low hanging fruit is for you to be like, I work at Sony.

441
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,000
Therefore, I'm an expert. So you should hire me.

442
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,000
My service is three hundred dollars. Yeah.

443
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:53,000
Like even if like you probably have a course and things that you're looking to build an audience and sell your services with consulting or coaching or whatever it is.

444
00:48:53,000 --> 00:49:01,000
But it starts with providing value in the first place of just offering a tip showing that you know what you're talking about in the first place.

445
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:09,000
Absolutely. And I think you're doing a great job of, you know, getting a message across that isn't, hey, you should hire me because, you know, I'm available.

446
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,000
Here I am. Here's my website. Yeah.

447
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,000
I mean, I like preach against that for artists.

448
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,000
Like my biggest thing right now is like artists stop saying my song is out now.

449
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,000
Like everyone is you don't see McDonald's starting their ads with.

450
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:34,000
We have a new burger. Eat it like they're selling selling the experience like you have to show people when to listen to your song.

451
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000
You have to like you can't just put it in their face.

452
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,000
People don't know who you are. Like they're passing you're like right.

453
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:44,000
Like if you're wasting your post, don't do that.

454
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:50,000
So I try not to do that with my post either. I'm trying to model what I'm preaching.

455
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:55,000
But I do think it gives like such a good insight. It really helps me manage.

456
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:03,000
I'm such a better manager now that I'm on social media because I was kind of like casually telling people like just post on social media.

457
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,000
Like that's irresponsible. What you post matters.

458
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,000
And like you said, it has to be individualized for each artist.

459
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:19,000
So these big right, the big picture ideas are all those tidbits you can share for free because they're big, big picture.

460
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,000
And some people can take those and apply those by themselves.

461
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:30,000
Other people need one on one help to how to apply that to their individual brand and how do I visualize it for me as an artist?

462
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:37,000
And that's where I like to work with people who just want that like one on one and we can get their strategy going.

463
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:44,000
But, you know, that's the cool thing about social media is you can like help so many people and give this information.

464
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,000
And some people just need the broad spectrum of it and they're good to go.

465
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,000
Other people need a little more like scaffolding and help.

466
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,000
But yeah, some people are like, don't give away too much information.

467
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,000
And it's like you can give away all the information.

468
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:05,000
It doesn't mean people can apply it by themselves because that's just not how people learn.

469
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,000
But that's that education background. I know the learning process.

470
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:16,000
Like that's what I have my formal institutional education is, is in how the brain like learns.

471
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:24,000
So it's helpful from a manager standpoint because I can teach that to artists.

472
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:33,000
Right. Well, I think part of like what you and I do to a degree is like we don't necessarily have new information.

473
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:40,000
We're just kind of trying to provide ways of how to process it and how to make sense of it.

474
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:46,000
So I don't have a team of researchers finding new information that is not available to anybody else.

475
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:54,000
It's just like a matter of how to look at things for you, what questions to ask.

476
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:03,000
And because we know there the problem is, even though like the cream of good information can rise to the top on social media,

477
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:11,000
but often it's you got to go through a ton of bullshit to find people don't even necessarily know what is what.

478
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:17,000
So like I think that's why someone should look into hiring someone like you to get that personal.

479
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:23,000
Well, what is the thing that works for you? What are you trying to do with your business?

480
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,000
Yeah, it's going to change the answer to your question.

481
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,000
Yeah. And that application piece, you know what I mean, is is big.

482
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,000
But like you said, I am really I advocate to people all the time.

483
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:41,000
Like find a few people that you really like, like how they present their message and follow them.

484
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:47,000
You should be all artists should be following one or two artist managers, one or two PR people,

485
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:54,000
one or two people who talk about the tick tock algorithm and one or two people who talk about the Instagram algorithm.

486
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:59,000
Because that way you don't have to research that you don't have to spend hours.

487
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,000
It's popping up in your algorithm.

488
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:07,000
So you're just getting that information casually and just getting it.

489
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:12,000
But find people you like. I always tell people like if you don't like how I deliver the message, that's fine.

490
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Like I'm not your learning style. Find someone who is there are a ton of people who do it in different ways.

491
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,000
And yeah, the message isn't different. Like good marketing is good marketing.

492
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:28,000
Like post daily, everyone is saying that like you're not listening, but everyone is saying it.

493
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:33,000
So just decide who you like to listen to say and then ignore it.

494
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,000
But maybe not.

495
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,000
Well, it's kind of like the news. You know, the news is the news.

496
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:46,000
Some people like to listen to Anderson Cooper. Some people like to listen to Tucker Carlson for some reason.

497
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:51,000
I never thought of it like that, but it is like the news.

498
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,000
Find your newscaster. Right.

499
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,000
Or almost like, you know, when LeBron James does damn near anything,

500
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:02,000
you get eight different channels with twenty seven different analysts with their take on what this means.

501
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:08,000
LeBron James turned left in his car today. So Skip Bayless is going to talk to us about why.

502
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:14,000
So the information is the information, but someone's take on it.

503
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:19,000
There can be so many more takes on this one piece of information that just like you're saying,

504
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:25,000
find the person who can who's take you like it connects with you.

505
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,000
Like, oh, OK, I get the point now because that person put it that way. OK, good.

506
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Yeah, absolutely. That's so, so important.

507
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:39,000
And I always tell people, like, don't follow someone just because they are in the music industry.

508
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,000
If you don't like the message because you're going to ignore it.

509
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:47,000
So find someone who like inspires you and like makes you want to take action.

510
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:53,000
And you're like, man, like you look up to them in some way or you're just like, damn, like they're dropping gems constantly.

511
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,000
Those are the people I follow because I like to hear how other people deliver the message.

512
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:05,000
And I'm learning like what I like to hear and how like I like give it to me quick on social media.

513
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Like my attention span is short.

514
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,000
So like you better like I don't want to wait till the end.

515
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,000
And that's some people's strategy. And it works for some people.

516
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,000
I want the information like right away.

517
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:23,000
Now, I look for people who give it right away because that's my learning style.

518
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,000
I'm super impulsive for like the meat of the information.

519
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:34,000
And if you don't give it to me, I'm my attention is going to be lost or I'm going to make an assumption about what I think they're going to say.

520
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,000
And then it skews it. But know that learning style.

521
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,000
Yep, absolutely. Find the fit. Yeah, find a fit.

522
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Thank you so much, you know, for joining today.

523
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:51,000
Is there any last tip on how you can help artists cut through the bullshit or maybe where they can find you on social media?

524
00:55:51,000 --> 00:56:00,000
I would love if people followed me on either Instagram or TikTok, whatever their platform of choice is managed by Mandy.

525
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:07,000
And my lasting tip would be post on social media daily.

526
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:13,000
It's a big one. Just drop a big post daily.

527
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,000
Post something. Figure out what works.

528
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:20,000
Yeah, we can do another like three hours on what to post too.

529
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,000
But Elliot, this has been so fun. Thank you so much.

530
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:29,000
I reached out to Elliot just so people know because I wanted to like connect on content.

531
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,000
And I think that's another great thing that artists should be doing and thinking about.

532
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000
This is my last tip. Connect on content.

533
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,000
This was a fun way to get content for me.

534
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,000
So thank you so much for helping with that.

535
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,000
What a cool way for the artist teams to collab now.

536
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:50,000
Absolutely. Well, I'm excited to have some of your time and thank you for doing this episode.

537
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,000
And I'll be sure to get you all of this content and we'll see what happens with it.

538
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,000
What a gift. Content gift. Love it.

539
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,000
My pleasure. We'll talk soon. Take care.

540
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:07,000
At the end of the day, yes, the music business is a unique beast,

541
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:12,000
but similar to many other businesses or all other businesses,

542
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,000
a lot of it does come down to genuine connections.

543
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:20,000
People work with who they know. People work with who they like.

544
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,000
And if people don't know you, they can't like you.

545
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,000
And if they don't know you, they can't work with you.

546
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:32,000
Getting out there and networking is part of the music business.

547
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:37,000
Unfortunately, the talent of your music isn't enough

548
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:43,000
in and of itself to carry you through and help you cut through the noise.

549
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,000
I wish it weren't the case, but it is.

550
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,000
And we can bitch and complain about if that's right or wrong.

551
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:57,000
But it doesn't change that today that is the case.

552
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:02,000
That does it for this episode of The Cutting Through Podcast.

553
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:07,000
My name is Elliott Towsley. Thank you so much for tuning in and supporting the show.

554
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,000
Believe it or not, aside from sending me money,

555
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,000
the best way that you can support the show is by subscribing

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and rating the podcast on your favorite streaming platform.

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And send us your questions about what type of topics you would like us to cover next.

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My name is Elliott Towsley. You can find me on Instagram at Elliott.Towsley

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or check out my company, Denovo Agency, where we can help entertainers

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and music businesses promote themselves online.

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This has been The Cutting Through Podcast.

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Don't forget to subscribe and we will see you next time.

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Thank you.