Wendy Day: Breaking a New Artist in Today's Music Industry

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The ads and the reach can't necessarily be all promotion all the time. So we always tell our

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clients if you're gonna, if you're gonna talk about yourself on your social media, do behind

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the scenes content and let people see who you are. Don't pitch them. Don't talk about your music.

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If anything, talk about why you make music. What does the song mean to you? But don't be like,

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yo, listen to my new single. It's hot. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know that. Tell us why you made it.

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Tell us where you went to school. What kind of student were you? Are you married? Do you have

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kids? Like talk about yourself so that the fans can feel a connection. And then that connection

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will make them go and dig the way me saying, Hey, I think the Russell's music is hot. And

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somebody checks it out. Absolutely. What's going on everybody? This is the cutting through podcast

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where we help entrepreneurs and entertainers cut through the noise. And more importantly,

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cut through the bullshit that they see online. My name is Elliot Towsley and I am your host.

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Today's episode, we are working with an entrepreneur and music marketing legend.

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Some people call her the goat. She's worked with people like Eminem, little Wayne,

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master P and tons of others. Give it up for my guest today. Wendy day.

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Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to chat with you. I'm just, I'm really

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interested to talk to you today to kind of just see like, you have a lot to offer musicians. I've

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seen just in your content, you know, I think it's really cool that you are one of the folks who

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probably doesn't need to be doing what you're doing in terms of giving free game out.

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I think that's really cool that you're doing that. And I think your content is really valuable. And

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I know a lot of people follow. Thank you. I do it Elliot, because I know how much it costs to

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break an artist and I'm disgusted by that. I just don't feel that money should drive art. I think

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art should be something we all love and we gravitate towards. And I also have this weird

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belief that you shouldn't have to pay for knowledge. So most people can't afford to work

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with me. And that really pisses me off. So since day one for 30 years, I've been giving away free

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information because I just don't feel that somebody who doesn't have money shouldn't be able

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to succeed. It's not fair. Are you seeing that that's becoming more of the case

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in like the modern music industry compared to when you were getting started?

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Yes, it's getting worse. But it's getting worse, not because things are getting more expensive,

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things are getting cheaper. It's getting worse for two reasons. One is because it's oversaturated.

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So now there's 60,000 uploads a day to Spotify instead of back in the day it was

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300 rappers or 500 rappers, all total. That's one reason. And the second reason is the fans

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are fractured. And what I mean by that is they're all doing different things where we need to

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capture their attention. So one fan might be a video game person and he's off playing video games.

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Another fan might be a beauty enthusiast. So she's off getting her hair and nails done.

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Another fan might be streaming movies. Another fan might be reading a book. So back in the day,

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there were less TV channels. There was no internet. People weren't as all over the place as they are

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today. So building a superstar today is really, really difficult. Really difficult. So the ears

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and the eyes are fractured. They're all over the place. So for me to reach people, I can't just

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run an ad on a TV station that's one of three channels.

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Right. And with that, coming from the lay of the land that you just set, it sounds like,

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with limited competition and limited ways to reach a mass audience, are you seeing that before,

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maybe, there were a lot of gatekeepers? I can imagine whoever the person was on MTV who chose

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the fit. Are you seeing that there are less gatekeepers, but with that, it makes it even

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more competitive? More gates and less people keeping them.

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True. Because there's less gatekeepers, it appears that it would be easier as an up-and-coming artist

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to get on. So that inspires more people to become musicians. And then, of course, the price of

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equipment, the price to record, we can go right from my bedroom to Spotify through a DSP, like

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Distro Kid, for $19.99. So the price of getting to the fan is cheaper. What's costing more is

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standing out. Right. And it's costing more to hold attention from the casual. Way more.

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Way more. And I think even in the 90s and early 2000s, I think when MTV, for example,

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people would almost set aside an hour or two of their day to discover new music or to check in

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with whatever's popular that week. Do you think that music is, aside from going to physically see

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an artist in person, do you think that music is becoming more passive for these casual listeners

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going throughout their day, like you're saying? Yes. Because they have more things to occupy

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their attention than ever before. And again, that comes back to it being fractured, right? So

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if you used to listen to music, say, six hours a day in the 90s, and you look at that fan today,

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they're probably listening to music for 20 minutes. And it may not even be straight through.

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It might just be background noise that comes on when they sign off of Twitch or they log into

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YouTube because they want to find out how to fix their toilet or cook a roast or whatever it is

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they're doing. And a video pops up and they watch it for two and a half minutes and then they go

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back to what they're doing. So it becomes less center stage and more background, if anything.

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Yes. The way music sounds has always been evolving. That's just natural. But what has

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changed so rapidly, so recently, not the music in the way it sounds, but how people listen to it

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and who is open to new music in the first place. Another thing that I'm realizing now is I'm like

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getting older. I've seen a couple of studies out there that suggest that once people hit 25, 27,

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they are less likely to go into discovering new music.

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Most, yes. It's very true.

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I work with musicians every day and I still find myself, when it comes to I just want to relax

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and listen to music, I go and listen to the folks that I know I like. I still listen to the same

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Johnny Cash record and the same Eminem playlist I have. And I think with that,

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do you think it is even possible to become even close to being a superstar if you can't get

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teenagers and middle school kids to like whatever it is you're doing?

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No, the age group is 13 to 26. And I feel like in the age group, if you don't land,

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it's sort of like what you just said about listening to Eminem and Johnny Cash.

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It's the soundtrack to your formative years. And if you can't capture those fans with you as the

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soundtrack, it's very hard to get fans. It's possible. It's just hard to get fans that are

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30, 32, 35, 40. That's why you don't see a lot of artists starting in their 30s.

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That's a really good point. It's hard.

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It is hard. And I think some artists as they like, let's say like the artists who were in

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my formative years, like, you know, early 2000s, 2010 up to 2014 ish, like little Wayne was huge,

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you know, Jay Z kind of had a resurgence of his career in a way. And like, even though Snoop Dogg

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with Khalifa became really famous in that time period. And like, it seems as like as, because

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now that's almost 10 years ago, or more and depending on which year you're looking at.

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Right.

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How would an artist that is quote unquote aging out of their music, like, what are some things

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that like, you've seen some artists do really successfully to like, kind of like, like Snoop

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Dogg is an artist, of course, but he's also a personality. He is also a host with Martha Stewart

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on a cooking show. Like, some people in America only know him as being that guy on the cooking show.

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Right.

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So what are some things like a good example of like, okay, music, you are an artist, but it

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doesn't need to be the only thing you're doing. Exactly. So like, I don't know if you have a good

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example of maybe someone who's under the radar doing cool things that you might recommend other

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artists do if they're kind of aging out of their audience. And whatever your hobby is,

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or your passion other than music, and some artists, that's all they want is music. But

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if you're a gamer, you should have a Twitch channel. If you're somebody that loves to cook

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and you're patient, and you can explain to people how to cook something, you should have a cooking

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show on YouTube. I have a client that loves to travel. And when I first met him, he was in

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France, and then he was in Jamaica. And then he was someplace else in the Caribbean, all within

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three weeks. And I'm like, wow, like, this is kind of cool. And I looked at the pictures that

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he was posting on his Instagram, I'm like, damn, I wish he had a travel channel. And when I said

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that to him, he's like, I could do that. And I'm like, you could? And he's like, yeah, I travel

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once a month, I would, I would love to have like, a monthly travel show to share with people of

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color, where to go and what to do, because it's different. Most of the travel shows are for people

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that look like you and I, you know, we don't take consideration, whether racism exists or not, or,

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you know, we don't, we don't really look at that. And he does, like, he, he wants to go to areas

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where they won't look at him like, what are you doing here? Who are you? Why are you here? So

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his travel show, and it hasn't started yet, it'll be on YouTube, we're filming it now,

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it just comes from a different angle. And it's fascinating to me.

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Right. Well, that's, that's a great example. I know T-Pain has, like, started getting a lot

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of attention with his Twitch channel, and just kind of telling stories. Yeah, I think a lot of

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stuff that I'll tell clients who are artists who are just starting out, and they're trying to say,

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like, well, what kind of content, like, do I make, like, other than here's my music video?

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And like, for example, I try to give artists is like, you know, the news is the news. Or like,

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say, like, when LeBron James does anything, like how many he does one thing, and then there's 87

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people who all have their take on just something that happened. Yeah, like, the news doesn't change,

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but the opinions can be different. So like, you know, Snoop Dogg doesn't need to be an amazing

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chef. But like, if I like his personality, and he's doing something that I think is interesting,

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I'll tune in, not because Snoop Dogg is the first person to ever have a cooking show, or like,

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there's a recipe I've never seen before. Well, exactly. Like, I mean, I know I like Snoop Dogg,

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so I'm going to tune in. Like, I think T-Pain is interesting, or I like some of his songs.

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Right. And you don't need to necessarily discover something brand new, or reinvent the wheel. Like,

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you can kind of just give a take, or be present. Like, how many I'm sure there are a lot of rappers

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who can make money just playing Fortnite, like, with their fans, or with their audience. And it's

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like, I think a lot of artists miss a part of the perspective where like, your music helps you build

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an audience, but your audience is what you monetize. Exactly. Unless you're getting like,

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a sync placement, or you land your music in a music video, or like a Netflix show or something.

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Aside from that, like, the music is what you use to build the audience, to get attention,

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and the attention is what you monetize. Whether it's with your song, or I'm appearing on,

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like, I'm going to eat chicken wings with hot sauce on it. How many rap, like, musicians have

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done that? And it's like, they're just visible, they're just doing something funny, something

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interesting. Right. And a lot of people, I think, miss that, or they think too hard when they think

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of, I got to create content, they think they need to set up a bunch of lights and have a schedule,

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you know, rent a car and all this. Instead of just like, why don't you just document what you do

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with your friends, and if you're going to a studio, document it. And there's a big difference

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between producing content and documenting what you're just doing already. Right. That's real.

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You know, and that comes back to even what we were talking about for folks that are aging out. It's

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really a numbers game. So if you know that for every 50 people that hear your music, or whatever

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the number is, I'm making it up, right? One person becomes a fan. If you want 100 fans, just do the

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math. And as you get older, it may not be one out of 50, might be one out of 100, or one out of 200.

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But there is a formula for everybody, whether you're talented, whether you're not talented,

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old, young, whatever. There's a formula. You just need to figure out what your ratio is,

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and then do the math. If you're not bringing in a lot of fans, you're going to have to reach more

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people to bring in more fans. It's that numbers game. Like you said, every 200 people that I am

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exposed to, two of them catch on. Okay, then it's a numbers game. I need to get in front of more

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people that fit that audience. But if you have two different ways to get in front of them, you have

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the music, and then you have the cooking show, or the travel show, or Twitch. Now your ratio becomes

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tighter. So you're reaching less people to reach more, if that makes any sense, to gain more into

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your franchise. With it being easier than ever to make and distribute music, that means it's easier

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than ever to compete in that market. With so much competition, vying for so much of this

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fractured attention from the audience, how does an artist break through?

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Well, I think I've seen studies out there that say if you're introducing a brand new product

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or artist, it can take a casual consumer up to 30 different times before they even recognize

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your name or your logo. Yes, I agree. Because we're diluged with stuff. So much. And it's one thing,

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if I'm already a fan of Eminem, and I see that he's got a new single coming out just in the game

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and next week, like I know I'm a fan. I know I'm interested. I might only need to see that one time.

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Exactly. Because you're looking for artists. Right, right. And I already know I care.

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But if new artists I've never heard of is running an ad, even if the ad itself is amazing,

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I'm not going to necessarily remember their name or remember what kind of music they made or

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anything like that. No, and you're not going to check them out because you don't care.

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Right. If somebody you know tells you, hey, this new kid, LaRussell is great. You're going to go

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and seek him out. I use him as an example because he's not my client. I'm working with him, but he's

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not my client. Right. So he's great. Go check him out. You're more likely to go check him out

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than if you saw an ad for him. So the ads and the reach can't necessarily be all promotion

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all the time. So we always tell our clients, if you're going to talk about yourself on your

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social media, do behind the scenes content and let people see who you are. Don't pitch them.

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Don't talk about your music. If anything, talk about why you make music. What does the song mean

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to you? But don't be like, yo, listen to my new single. It's hot. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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We know that. Tell us why you made it. Tell us where you went to school. What kind of student

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were you? Are you married? Do you have kids? Talk about yourself so that the fans can feel a

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connection and then that connection will make them go and dig the way me saying,

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hey, I think LaRussell's music is hot and somebody checks it out.

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Absolutely. And I think that really plays along with the idea of trying to make content that's

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for your audience. Any sort of content that's just like, hey, I'm a musician. My song's on Spotify.

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It's really good. Right up here. I've heard that 50 times today.

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So many times and people missed the idea of, like you said, just twisting it a little bit.

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Why did you make the song? How does it make you feel? Now it's something maybe I can connect

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with. I might find it interesting. Who inspired you? You just told me you love M&M. If I brought

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you an artist that said an M&M is his favorite rapper, you might go, oh, let me check him out.

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Now you have something in common. Yes, something other than, oh,

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it's another artist. Right. It's one of those 60,000 new songs that were uploaded today.

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One of the questions I really wanted to ask you is I know you've worked with a handful of

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really successful artists. A question I had was when you find yourself with different artists,

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do you find that you more or less play the same role each time or are you really adaptable and

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fluid? It's adaptable because everybody comes to me relatively new. Yes, I've worked with Master P

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and M&M and Cash Money, blah, blah, blah, but they were brand new when I worked with them. They

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weren't to the level where they are today. Everybody has different trials and tribulations.

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With Cash Money, they were dropping music really quickly, but they were only marketing it in their

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home city, so I stepped in and brought them bigger. M&M came out at a time when white boys

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couldn't rap, so it was his race that was inhibiting him and the fact that he didn't have

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money. Master P was marketing music brilliantly, but the music wasn't as great as it needed to be.

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There were like three good songs on each album, but then the rest was filler, but he was selling

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albums for $20 and $25 a pop. Everybody has a different trajectory and different circumstances,

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so I'm more chameleon-like where I see what the need is and then I fill it,

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but everybody doesn't have the same problem. They're all the same in that they want to be

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successful, but not every road is the same. The way you market people is very different.

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The times change so quickly that what I was doing nine months ago, I'm not even doing anymore.

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I don't focus on playlists. I don't focus on blogs. I don't even really focus much on

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Instagram anymore. My focus really has shifted to TikTok because that's where the fans are and

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that's where the energy is, so it's not like a cookie cutter stamp. You work a street artist

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differently than you work a pop artist. Well, I think that's so important. I see so many

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artists that are looking for that, like, well, what is the step-by-step process that every one

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of us can use? It's different for everybody. There is no cookie cutter. I wish there was a cookie

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cutter. It would probably be easier. We probably have less fans because everything would sound

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the same, but it's not quite that easy and it's all work. Whatever you decide to do,

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you've got to give it your all because on the best day, this is a lot of work,

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so on the worst day, it's 50 times more work. Yes.

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I love the way that Wendy gives it to artists straight. In an industry where there's so many

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people who are going to say, I'll make you famous on Tuesday and make it go viral or some stuff like

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that, she shows that this is going to take some work. I can understand why artists can get

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disheartened because what I wish I could tell them and what I think they want to hear

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is that if they're talented enough, that's enough. It's never enough. I don't know where that came

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from because that's never been and that artists have always thought that and it's never been true.

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Never been true. So much of it is networking and being in the right place at the right time and

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being prepared. Being prepared. I work with artists who tell me that they want to

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tour, which is a great goal, but then I'm like, okay, do you have a 40-minute set list down

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that if the venue in your city, hey, whoever, Bruno Mars is playing tomorrow and the opener got

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sick and we found your video, can you play? What are you going to say? No? So I think just being

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prepared, knowing how to, it's everything and knowing the name of the game enough to know what

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you're actually trying to present to a venue or a manager or radio station. They want you to be

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talented, sure, but if I own a venue in New York City, if some guy comes out and plays a dial tone

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in the microphone, but he sells out every ticket, do I really care if I think it's amazingly

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talented or vice versa? It could be the most amazing piano player I have ever seen and if

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nine people bought tickets, I'm not happy. I wish I could just say, if you're talented enough,

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don't play any shows, don't make any content, word will get out somehow that you're really

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talented. It's magic. It's magic. It's crazy. You know, I've also noticed that when artists are

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up and coming and they find another artist that they look up to and they want to go and study them

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and mimic their moves, they can't mimic what they're doing now. They've got to look at what

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they did to get on and then mimic the idea of it, not the actual steps that they took because

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everything changes so fast. You know, we use Russ a lot as our success and Russ was amazing, but

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what worked for him when he was coming up might not work today. The repetition does and the

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consistency does. We still drop music weekly or bi-weekly in my office, so that part of it still

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works, but you can't look at Lil Wayne or Drake and say, oh, well, when they come out, they get

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spun on the radio and they buy some billboards, so I'm going to go to radio and I'm going to buy

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some billboards. It won't work. They're, you know, 10, 12, 15 albums in in their career and people

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know who they are. It's a little different, so you've got to compare yourself to other people

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that are just starting out even though you're competing with Wayne and Drake and all the

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heavyweights. That's such a good point. I think a mistake I see artists or independent artists

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who are just getting started, a mistake I see is like they might go to a popular website,

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maybe something like World Star or The Source or something like that, and they'll pay $1,000 to be

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like a banner ad on the home page for two days or something. Like you said, if I already know...

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Nobody knows them.

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Nobody? I don't know you, right? If it says new Wiz Khalifa album and I know I like Wiz Khalifa,

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great. It registers and now I'm ready to...

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Immediately, yes.

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But you can't introduce an artist to folks on a billboard or with a banner ad.

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No, it's oral. They need to hear it. It's not going to work for them to see you. First of all,

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the amount of times they'd have to see it to go, all right, let me check this out. I see this all

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the time. That amount of money you have to spend to get somebody to check you out just on the

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I want to know who this is tip would be in the millions and most artists don't have millions.

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So it's just not a good way to market.

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Well, I saw a video from a couple of years ago where you were saying that in order to break an

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artist, I think in the video, break an artist might have meant getting on a billboard chart,

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something significant, something like that. I think the number you had said a couple of years

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ago to break an artist was 150 grand. Have you seen even in two years, like you're saying,

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nine months, everything kind of changes. And since then, is the number more or less the same?

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No, it's the same. It's the same. And when I'm saying break an artist,

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I mean, get them to the point where there's money coming back into the company,

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because it's going to cost you more than 150 to build your career. But that's 150 of new money.

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So when the income comes back in and show money comes first merchandise, money comes next, then

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publishing and streaming, you know, follow afterwards, you're going to have to put that

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money back into the company and keep spending money going forward. So it takes me I don't know,

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I can't speak for anybody else, but it takes me 150 to get that artist to that point where

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there's money coming back in. It's not necessarily to break them. It doesn't mean they're going to

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spend 150. And now they're Drake. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, right. I wish.

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Right. When I think that's a good point, you said where like, you had you have to spend 150 to get

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to the point where money is coming in. That doesn't mean you're done spending money. No,

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no. This is a very expensive industry. You can spend 750 or a million dollars to do this

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very easily. Where does the bulk of that money go? For us, it goes to digital ads, we test everything.

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So we're testing things digitally, we're testing usually five songs at a time. And we test for two

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weeks, we spend about 200 bucks. But it tells me which song is going to do better than another

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song. So we're still putting out all the music. But it tells me where where to spend that budget.

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We're doing influencer marketing, we're shooting content, we're shooting videos, our videos that

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were kind of like content. It's still music a music video, but it's certainly not as elaborate

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as most other people do. We spend about $500 on music videos. And then if the song starts

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to grow legs and really take off, we'll shoot like a second video for it, where we'll spend maybe a

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couple thousand or a few thousand dollars on it, because it's deserving of that. I don't want to

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spend $3,000 on a video, and then it tanks, it doesn't do well, it doesn't make sense.

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That's a really good strategy. I think both from the standpoint of I've got five singles, let me

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test each one of these a little bit, see which horse wins the race and then go more all in.

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Absolutely. Yep. And that determines the budget. That whole 150 isn't spent on five songs. That

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150 is spent over a year to a year and a half. So that 150 kind of fuels everything that's going

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along. But we're working like five or six songs at a time. So we're looking to see which of those

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are going to poke their head up, and then we'll spend a percentage, like maybe the budget for

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those five songs is 30 grand. So two songs stand out. I'm going to spend 20,000 on two songs,

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and then the remaining 10,000 on the other three. It just tells me where to best allocate my

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limited dollars. Right. Where the best return might be. Absolutely. And it hasn't been wrong

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yet. I'm still watching it because everything at some point changes, but for right now that works

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for us. When you do that strategy with the music videos and similar kind of thing, you might make

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three, four or five videos and kind of see which song picks up. Yes. When you do make a second

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video, do you take down the original one? No. No, you just leave it up. No. Yeah. Pretty cool.

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It really looks like content. My early music videos, the ones we spent 500 on, are usually

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the artists in just a bunch of different scenes, maybe two or three scenes, rapping on a basketball

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court, rapping in front of an old school car, and maybe in the trap with the boys behind them.

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So we're chopping them up to use not only a music video for YouTube, but we're chopping them up,

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and you're going to see it on shorts. You're going to see it on TikTok. You're going to see it on

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reels. You're going to see it on Instagram stories. You're going to see it on Instagram.

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You're going to see it on Facebook. You're going to see it all over the place. So that $500 that

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we're spending, I'm not pulling it down because it's content, but the music video, we'd rename

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it something, and I'm trying to think of a creative name right now, and I'm not coming up with

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anything, but it might become the official music video in quotes, or it might be official music

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video 2.0. It'll be a little more creative, but that's the one that will really go balls to the

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wall with promotions and marketing because we know the song warrants having that bigger video,

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and then we'll market and promote that video as larger than life.

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Before you go all in on any song or any one campaign, use data and go through a bit of an

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experiment to find which song seems to work best for you, then simply double down on that campaign

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and get more people to engage with what you know works best.

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One of my last questions I get from musicians all the time is, you know,

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when's the right time to get a music manager, and then, you know, the right answer is it depends,

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or when you can't manage yourself. But I'm wondering, it is a real answer, like when you

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I think a lot of people mistake the idea of a manager for an assistant,

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or like they don't want to answer emails and like make phone calls, but I'm wondering,

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in your experience, I think there's kind of like two sides of the coin of what a great manager

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might be, and I think one side might be someone who's like a die-hard friend that you can trust,

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who's been around for a long time and knew you when you were broke, and the other side would be

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like, okay, you're starting to get some success, and here's someone who doesn't know you, but they

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can open a ton of doors for you, and assuming that's your choice. Hands down. Okay, I think a

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lot of people can get caught up with that idea of like loyalty, or like, well, I can trust him,

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he's my friend, he's been here for 10 years. You can trust him, he is your boy, you love him,

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you know you can yell at him, and he'll still be here tomorrow, but he has the same experience

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and knowledge that you have, so you're never going to grow beyond, and that's a problem.

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I agree. I think I would rather have the doors be an opportunity than not be possible, and I think

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if that were the opportunity, I could learn enough to cover my own ass or to get people to cover my

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ass for me. That would make me feel a lot more safe about the perception of losing the loyalty

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trust from my trusted friend. Absolutely. The longer you can wait, the more successful you'll be,

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and the better level of manager you'll attract, and I'll say this, if you're somebody that just

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you really have trust issues, and you really don't want an outside person as your manager,

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then at least your boy that's managing, or your girl that's managing you, at least have them go

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and work under somebody for free for three months that's doing it successfully. Let them get the

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relationships, the knowledge, and the experience so they can come back to you and help get you to

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the next level. At least do that. At the very minimum, that's what you need to do. That's a

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great tip, and I think you said something interesting there where, you know, if an artist

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is getting to the point where a great manager would be interested, is that generally how it

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works that actually the manager will kind of make their way to contact you? All the time. All the

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time. All the time. Because they're getting paid a percentage of income, so if they see a newer

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artist that's making $10,000 a month, and they know that they're going to make $2,000 a month off of

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that artist's $10,000, and they know that they step in, that $10,000 could be $30,000 or could

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become $50,000 pretty quickly, then they've already seen what the artist can do. They've seen the

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reaction. They know there's a fan base. They know that if they step in, they don't have to break the

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artist from the bottom level. The artist is already here. They just have to apply a little bit of their

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connection and go boop and push them up over the hill, and then they start to come down the other

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side quickly. It's honestly like Shark Tank almost. We're like, oh, you have a product. I've got seven

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partnerships with products just like that. Like, I'll plug you right in. We'll get it going. Exactly.

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What is your proof of concept? Well, here's my proof of concept. I'm making $10,000 a month. It

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shows that what I'm doing has legs and has viability, and somebody that understands this

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industry and has experience is going to look in at that and know what they can bring to the table.

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Now, the sharks will also come. I mean, sharks in a bad way. I call them bottom feeders. The bottom

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feeders are going to come, see that you're making money, and they're going to want that $2,000 a

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month, and they don't want to add anything to what you're doing. You've got to be very careful who

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you let into your circle and who you let represent you. A bad manager can kill your career. They can

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destroy everything within a period of two to three months. That would be terrible.

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The great thing about living in 2022 is that we can Google. Somebody can Google you. They can

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Google me, and if you go deep enough, you can see who likes the person, who doesn't like the person.

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You can go into their Instagram feed and go really deep. You can go to their TikTok and go really

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deep. See what types of engagement do they have? Who are they talking to? Who are they responding

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to? How are they responding? Are they mean? Are they supportive of people even when somebody's

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coming at them from a negative way? Are they like, fuck you? Or are they like, thank you for your

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perspective? I don't agree, but thank you for your perspective, because that tells you so much about

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people as humans. If you're hiring a manager, surprise, surprise, you're hiring a human.

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If it's a good human, the chances are good that they're going to do everything they can for you.

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If it's a bad human, chances are good you're going to get hurt.

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I lean toward saying there's almost no excuse to, like you said, I can look up these things. I can

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find the information to see what a good manager is supposed to be, or what a good recording

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contract maybe is supposed to look like. It's almost similar to how many stories have we heard

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of either musicians or athletes who made a ton of money and then they lose it all. After a while,

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it's like, haven't you heard these stories before? How does this keep happening?

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How does this keep happening? I'm not in that situation. I'm getting less and less empathy

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toward seeing, what do you mean you signed a terrible record contract? You didn't look this

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up. It's not like there's three entertainment attorneys. It's not like I don't have 10 videos

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talking about this at all times. It's not like I don't have a book for $6 about this. It's just

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crazy. Are you offering or plan to offer any sort of online course or coaching program kind of thing?

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Coaching, no, because for me, every artist is different. I would have to go in and study

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everybody individually to understand what their market is and how to work with them. I already do

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that for a living. I have Power Moves, which is a company that does that. My clients have the funding

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to get to that next level. What I don't want to do is ever mislead somebody into thinking

375
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that they can be successful for five grand because I can't do that. I don't know anybody that can.

376
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:36,520
I don't ever want to coach somebody. Even though it would help to get them with that five grand,

377
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:43,080
they could get to 10. With that 10, they could get to 30. They could grow. But for me, for what I do,

378
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I don't ever want to mislead somebody into thinking that I can get them there overnight.

379
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When they're coming to me, that's what they're thinking. Even though I'm telling them,

380
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,000
it's a lot of work. This isn't fast. It's a one-year process. They're nodding with me,

381
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and then they're going, she's going to sprinkle pixie dust on me, and I'm going to be famous

382
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tomorrow. That's what they're thinking. I just don't want to mislead people. I'm very careful

383
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about the clients that I take on, especially the older that I get because I don't need to do this

384
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:22,760
anymore. I'm taking on clients that are easy for me and my team and clients that are kind of slam

385
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:32,280
dunks because I can. If you're new to this and you're not an easy sell, you need to go to

386
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:38,280
the next Wendy Day. Whoever the Wendy Day is that's coming up under me,

387
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they can take you all the way because I don't have that patience anymore.

388
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,400
All right. That's Wendy tomorrow. There we go. I love that.

389
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:57,000
Well, I think what you do for artists is great. Again, I'm going to piggyback on what you said.

390
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:05,640
You don't need to be doing this. Thank you for doing this because I know you don't make

391
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:13,480
money doing this. None of us do. I love that you're doing this.

392
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:21,240
Thank you. I appreciate it. If there's ever a way where independent artists who are at the ground

393
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:27,880
level who are not even close to ready to being 150K project, I'd love to help them and see what

394
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:28,920
I can do. That's 99.9%.

395
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,640
Is there any last tip you might want to leave some artists with here today?

396
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:43,960
My tip is to learn the music industry. This is not what it seems. It's not easy. It's a lot of work.

397
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:50,360
It's a lot of fun. It's not hard. I can do it. You can do it. I think without insulting you,

398
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,200
I can say we're not rocket scientists. If we can do this, others can do this. Would you agree?

399
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:03,800
If we can do it, anybody can do it. It's not hard, but you have to learn it. Don't just go by what

400
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,440
I'm saying. Don't just go by what Elliot is saying. Go see what everyone is saying and learn from all

401
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:16,360
of us. Learn from the people that are giving you the real and the people that are giving you the

402
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:22,440
facts and the people that are doing this for a living and know what it is. Then don't just go by

403
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:28,920
one of us. Listen to what everyone is saying. You will quickly learn who knows and who doesn't

404
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,760
because areas that I don't do every day, I'm really weak at touring. I'm really weak at publishing.

405
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,640
I'm very nervous to give information about something that I'm not great at.

406
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,840
You know, so go listen to what other people are saying in all areas and then decide what's right

407
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:53,960
for you and then put your own plan together and move forward. That's great. I think even being

408
00:42:53,960 --> 00:43:01,080
willing to say, hey, that is not my expertise. I don't know. Like that's so valuable. I think so

409
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:06,760
many people that are cropping themselves up as like an expert or whatever, like instead of being

410
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,640
like, oh, actually, I don't know that. They try to come up with some answer and then you sound like

411
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:18,600
you're bumbling. That's why I started making videos, to be honest with you, Elliot. I saw

412
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:24,760
one of my, I don't want to call him a friend. He's really an acquaintance in the music business,

413
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:32,360
but somebody I respect. It was around September of 2016 and he made a video and he put it out

414
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:41,640
and he gave advice that was incredibly incorrect. And I was like, how does he not know better?

415
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:48,280
And I'm like, I respect him. So I don't think he's somebody that's misleading people. Maybe he just

416
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:55,240
misspoke. So I started making videos of things that I knew about where I could be sure of what

417
00:43:55,240 --> 00:44:01,720
I was saying. And then when I wasn't sure I would go to an industry friend that was good at publishing

418
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:07,160
or good at touring or good at sample clearance. I've never cleared a sample. Who am I to give you

419
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,520
advice? So I went to Debra Maness Gardner and said, here, talk to my people and tell them,

420
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,400
you know, that's what people should do when they don't know something a hundred percent.

421
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:23,000
I have said things on video that I thought were correct. And then somebody has come back and

422
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,280
corrected me. And for me, it's like, oh my God, I can't, I could pull that down, but

423
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:34,920
who's already seen it? Like the damage that's done. So I'm really careful about what I say,

424
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:40,680
but most people are not. Most people don't really think about that until they say something wrong.

425
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,480
But I'm very careful now. I make sure that I tell people, don't just go by me,

426
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,000
go by what everyone says and then figure out what's right for you and do what's right for you.

427
00:44:53,800 --> 00:45:00,760
That's really the key is there are no clear next steps for everyone. There is no, oh yeah,

428
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:06,520
everyone should run Facebook ads and everyone should do this, this exact way. It's about finding

429
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,960
what works best for you. And then doing more of it. Find out what works for you, do more of it.

430
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:17,880
And be willing to go through that experiment to try to do that. I think a lot of people,

431
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,920
they try one thing that doesn't work and they say marketing sucks or Facebook ads are a scam.

432
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,480
And then like they might've only tried one or two things and then it might not have been optimal

433
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:36,120
and then you quit because exactly. And then you're losing a whole lane of marketing that we all know

434
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,560
works just because either you didn't hire the right person or you didn't do it right yourself,

435
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:49,640
whichever. Yeah. Right. Fail faster. That would be my advice. Fail faster. Try everything. Do more

436
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:57,800
of what works and just learn what doesn't work faster. Right. Yeah. Fail fast. Fail faster. Yes.

437
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,920
Well, Wendy, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure.

438
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,840
And I'll be talking to you soon. Thank you again for doing this. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.

439
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,560
Okay. I'll see you online. Sounds great. Bye. Bye.

440
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:22,040
Fail fast. I like that Wendy is willing to admit that she doesn't know everything there is to know

441
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:29,800
about the music industry. And it's okay to have different perspective from different mentors or

442
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:35,960
different consultants or a couple of managers or whatever it is on your team. It's about finding

443
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:44,360
the right fit. It's about finding what works for you and your business. If you know that there is

444
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:50,520
no formula that you can follow to find success in the music industry, you might be more willing

445
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:56,280
to go through that experiment in the first place. Nobody's going to step up and hit a grand slam

446
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:02,200
on their first at bat. If you do, it might happen once a year with some new artist and they might

447
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:08,280
catch lightning in a bottle like Lil Nas X did. But for everybody else, it's going to be

448
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:16,200
progress over time based on what works best. You have to be willing to go through that experiment

449
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:22,600
and you have to be willing to go follow Wendy at Rap Coalition. All right, everybody. That does it

450
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:29,720
for this episode of the Cutting Through Podcast. My name is Elliot Townsley. Thank you so much

451
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:36,280
for tuning in and supporting the show. Believe it or not, aside from sending me money, the best

452
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:44,200
way that you can support the show is by subscribing and rating the podcast on your favorite streaming

453
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:50,680
platform and send us your questions about what type of topics you would like us to cover next.

454
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:57,160
My name is Elliot Townsley. You can find me on Instagram at Elliot.Towsley or check out my

455
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,960
company, Denovo Agency, where we can help entertainers and music businesses promote

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00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,400
themselves online. This has been the Cutting Through Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe

457
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:14,680
and we will see you next time.