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A lot of people in business, whether you're an artist or producer or you have a company

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or whatever, the main point is you want to get to the person who knows everybody else

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because you don't have to build your own network.

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You really kind of just got to get in with somebody else's network and that'll open

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up the doors everywhere else.

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It cuts down on footwork.

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So you're not using as much energy to acquire these clients.

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You're letting someone else do it for you and kickbacks are always really to me beneficial,

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especially in a shady industry like the music business.

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What's going on, everybody?

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This is the Cutting Through podcast where we help entrepreneurs and entertainers cut

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through the noise and more importantly, cut through the bullshit that they see online.

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My name is Elliot Towsley and I am your host.

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What's happening, pimps and players?

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I'm here with your boy, Elliot and Kevin.

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My name is Mark.

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I'm not hosting this, but I took over the mic, so I'm going to go through interest.

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Elliot owns De Novo Agency and Songflower De Novo, awesome marketing company for artists.

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Songflower distribution company, awesome for artists and Kevin, my buddy, Kevin, he owns

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Black.

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Well, okay.

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So it was Black Pearl Studios.

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Now it's safe and sound, safe and sound, awesome production and recording facility in uptown

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Charlotte.

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And he's worked with.

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Go ahead.

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Everybody you've worked with, every single client.

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Mark Eckert.

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That's all that matters, right?

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I'm a multi-platinum mix engineer, mastering engineer as well.

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I've worked with people from like the Baby, Buddy, Givion, and well, Juice WRLD.

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I mean, Lil Baby and Future.

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Lil Baby, Future.

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Name an artist.

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He's worked with them.

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Shin Seiya, if you guys are into reggae, dancehall stuff, 88 Rising, a lot of major

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label work.

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So yeah.

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Sick.

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And he's working with one artist that no one knows yet.

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His name is actually Future's Lil Baby.

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That's right.

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He's going to break him onto the scene.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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So I think what's really interesting is actually how you kind of got started because I feel

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like a lot of these records started coming about like 2018, 2019, and then it kind of

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just took off from there.

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I feel that from since we've been friends, right?

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Yeah, well, they kind of got started a little bit before that.

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So anybody that is new to the music industry, at least on the label side of things, it's

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like a lot of hurry up and wait.

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So you're doing stuff.

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So maybe in 2016, 2017, I was putting in a lot of this groundwork and then they started

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coming out.

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2018 was really when like some of the more of the major label stuff came out.

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2019 is when some of the bigger hits were coming out, like Sugar, the Baby on Baby project.

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Came out in 2019.

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But before that, I was doing like the 88 Rising, the stuff for like Red Bull.

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I was also doing stuff for Warner Music Portugal.

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I was doing things for, you know, just here and there.

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So how long are you typically waiting for, like from starting a project to it actually

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coming out?

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Because I think a lot of people are independents and we always have kind of this mystery of

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what it's like working with majors, you know?

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Yeah, well, with Independence, it's usually like, hey, I recorded a song on Friday.

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We're releasing it on Monday.

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I need everything done.

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Nobody's, you know, moving the way we need them to move right now.

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And that's not really how a major label works.

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Typically, what will happen is they may hire me three months ahead of a release.

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The absolute last deadline for everything is a month.

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So if they miss that month deadline, they push it back.

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But almost every time when they're like, hey, we're doing this and we're trying to finish

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this in July and we have an October release, it almost always gets pushed back to the first

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or second quarter of the next year.

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Really?

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Yes, almost always.

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So there's usually between three and nine months is the typical release time, but sometimes

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up to a year, sometimes even more than that.

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I know, like with the Shinsea project that just came out, I mixed one of those, the record

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Bouncy with Her and Offset from Migos.

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I mixed that last March.

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Oh, wow.

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So, you know, things like that.

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I know the one that we worked on, the Future and Little Baby record that we'd had that

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mixed almost what, a year before that came out?

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Yeah, that was a while.

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But sometimes, like even when I deal with artists like The Baby, he might hit me a week

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before the deadline and it might get released a week later.

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Yeah, you'll call me and you'll just be like, sorry, man, can't hang out for the next a

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hundred hours.

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I'm like, why?

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It's like, well, the baby called.

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Well, yeah.

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All right.

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Cool.

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I'll see you later.

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You know, NDAs prohibit me from telling you why I can't hang out for that hundred hours.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Sorry, sorry.

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OK, what I think is really interesting is, so when I first moved back to Charlotte, so

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Elliott is new to Charlotte relatively.

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I lived here back in high school and then I went to Berkeley up in Boston and then lived

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in New York.

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And then I came back to Charlotte because it's so damn great here.

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You're originally from Charlotte, which is crazy.

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And what I think is also crazy is so, you know, you're working on literally like every

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major record at this point, but it wasn't always like that.

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And Charlotte wasn't even necessarily a popular music industry town.

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Now, I feel like we have kind of tastemaker stuff coming out of here, which is great.

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But when you were initially kind of getting more into this major world, because you started

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off with independent stuff.

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Yeah.

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So what were some of your catalysts to get into the major world and what were maybe some

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big things that you had to learn because it's way different than independent.

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Right.

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Because again, you were from Charlotte because there wasn't as much going on here.

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For sure.

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For sure.

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The major thing I had to learn that I was from Charlotte and there wasn't a lot of major

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things going on here.

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That was the absolute most crucial part of my journey was recognizing, well, one, Charlotte's

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not anything to be one.

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Right.

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Right.

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It's a great city.

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I love being from here.

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There's plenty of history here, but there's not music industry here.

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The machine is not here.

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So anybody that's been in New York, LA, Atlanta, Miami.

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Nashville.

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Yeah, Nashville.

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The machine is there.

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So you see what happens when you have a hit record.

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You see even, I know what always used to surprise me was the buildings.

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So in New York, I go to a record label office and I'm like, oh shit, I'm not charging you

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enough money.

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You know, they've got windows where you hit it and they frost, you know, instead of blinds

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and things like that.

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And there's like thumbprint stuff everywhere.

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I remember we talked, it's like, if you're a real business in the music industry, you

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got a building.

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Right.

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And you're paying rent somewhere, not in your house.

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And so what always said to me was that Charlotte doesn't have it.

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It's not there.

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And that's okay.

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You know, the good thing is Charlotte's a hub and we can get to anywhere almost on a

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direct flight.

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Right.

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So what the catalyst was for me to answer your question, it was really going to Full

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Cell University, not from what I learned, but from who I was able to network with.

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So I figured out how to network down there.

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You know, I'm the type of guy, it's a, yeah, the where I went, I went actually on site

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and I only went half the time.

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So I realized like the school when I was there, it was kind of like a cattle farm.

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They really pushed you through by the month.

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It was all about money, but there were some go-getters there.

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So out of a class of 30 every month, there may be one or two people that are actually

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doing something and you have to find those people.

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On top of that, I met some other people in the Orlando area where there was just a little

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bit more, because they were just in a little bit closer proximity to actual making money

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in the industry.

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So that's all I did.

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I just started networking and I found people and I would always practice my craft.

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So I never disregarded the craft, but the actual networking side.

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So I got out of here.

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I would go to Atlanta.

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I was working for a guy, Kane Beats, you know, Kane Beats was BMI producer of the year,

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I think 2009, maybe 2008 or something like that.

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So what you said, your main craft was networking.

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I kind of felt like that was the same thing for me.

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So when I went to Berkeley, my mom told me, don't give a shit about learning your instrument

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much, you know, much better.

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That was a terrible sentence.

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Good for me.

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She didn't say that.

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She can actually perform sentences, but she said, just get everybody's number.

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So that was like my whole job is like the first week.

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My goal was to get every, I went door to door basically and just got everybody's phone number

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because even if it's kind of weird, but yeah, yeah, well it worked for you.

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Well, not in like a weird, I wasn't give me your number.

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That's fucking weird.

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But it was, I was trying to make friends with everybody.

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So that was the same for you.

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No, absolutely.

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I just kind of, at that time, at the point in my life, I was sort of like in a conquer

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So I would really smell out who I thought was doing something and then I would test them

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because I knew I was doing something.

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At least I felt like I was doing something or I had a certain level of credibility.

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Also was coming from like an HBCU marching band culture, which is incredibly competitive

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and incredibly territorial and standoffish and all those things.

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So it was really like, I was kind of imposing myself a lot of times, but it worked for the time.

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That's not how I go about things now, but transitioning straight from that

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to this new place in a new city where I didn't know anybody.

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I just kind of hit the ground running and I would find the people that I would,

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I would see how they acted.

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Did I think they were cool?

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Did I think that they were somebody?

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And then I would judge them based on what I heard from them.

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So it'd be like music or whatever.

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Because a lot of people don't know what they want and they just go there

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because if you can pay the money, you don't have to have any requirements

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other than a high school degree at Full Sail.

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That's why Full Sail's president was like number one businessman in Florida the year I was there.

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You know what I'm saying?

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It is what it is.

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But there were a few people that had really good music and were doing things.

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And then those people had connections.

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And what I learned is that I can get myself in the door from how I maneuver socially.

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I know how to have a conversation.

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I know how to hang out.

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I know how to, when to be quiet, when to talk, all those things.

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And then I can stay in the door based on my ability.

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I was good enough to stay in the room.

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I wasn't maybe not the best person ever.

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But there compared to the students, I was a little step ahead.

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And then what I was good enough, I was smart enough to recognize

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when people were making moves on their own and how that could benefit me later on.

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It's like, well, let me bring something to the table for you.

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And then I'll find a lane, which was engineering.

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So everybody wanted to be a producer.

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Everybody to this day still wants to be a producer.

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And it's a terrible lane to be in.

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It's slow money.

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You know, it's over competitive.

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They're always looking for a cheaper price or somebody that can do it like you.

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That sounds similar, like they don't care, but people always sleep on engineering.

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But engineers are not only learning.

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They're also in the rooms with all these people.

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And then if you do still want to produce, there's always, man, we need this track redone

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or this production out there.

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I can do it.

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The opportunities are exponential when it comes to engineering.

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Well, it's kind of funny because producers are in a way like I think nowadays we're not

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talking about like the days of like Daniel and Juan, like Rick Rubin.

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We're talking about like producers now.

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They're almost like artists, you know, producers have their own brands.

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And it's like, you know, when I was only acting as a working producer,

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it's like you build your brand and people find your sound and then they seek you out.

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But I think while that's the same with engineers, what you said is pretty true.

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It's like, you know, after somebody's done making the music with the producer,

243
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,120
an artist is done.

244
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,240
If the producer isn't like half ass, you know, bullshit mixing it.

245
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,840
If they go to an engineer to actually have it mixed and mastered.

246
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,880
What's interesting is like you're a true service provider.

247
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,880
So it's like you're just you have the entire network and it's like, oh, yeah,

248
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,040
we're going to call Kev, you know, it's like, you know, the baby hit you up last minute.

249
00:11:59,040 --> 00:11:59,840
We need this mixed.

250
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,920
It's like, and he loves you and loves you.

251
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,920
So like that's that's kind of the difference from producers work with artist by artist,

252
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,640
whereas you could work with like a hundred artists a month, you know?

253
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,400
And so everybody knows you and trust you.

254
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,600
So if you give a vouch, I mean, you've got me on records literally just because you vouched for me.

255
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,840
So it's like you're the network.

256
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,520
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

257
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,200
People go to who they know, right.

258
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,080
And like to the baby at some point, he was like, who's that?

259
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,680
Who's that guy that does the mixes?

260
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,560
Can at one point it was that's who you were to like someone who's very, very busy,

261
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:35,520
got a lot of shit going on.

262
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,360
Or maybe maybe that's what Kevin.

263
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,800
Yeah, I mean, he's been working with other new artists today.

264
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,160
At the beginning, Kevin would just be like, who's that guy who does the really great mixes?

265
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,360
And someone like, Kevin, okay, good column.

266
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,960
Like, but eventually it's like, and then like, who's that sink guy?

267
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:51,760
What was his name?

268
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:52,640
Oh, that was Mark.

269
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,320
So you got to be that guy for like a different amount of for different people.

270
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,600
Because you weren't always just mixing.

271
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,000
You said you were producing and yeah.

272
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,800
So when I did a lot of recording too, that was really kind of where I learned

273
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,920
the ins and outs of working a room, things like that.

274
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,960
Knowing, you know, how to approach people.

275
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,800
I also, when I came back to Charlotte, I really didn't have a lot of options.

276
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,240
I was supposed to work at a studio where they had a job for me and I got there.

277
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,240
And I think I did, I made a hundred bucks.

278
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,960
The first month I moved to Charlotte, I quit my job in Durham.

279
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,400
I was like, I want to pursue music full time.

280
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,520
And I was like, oh shit.

281
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,480
You know, like, what do I do now?

282
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,080
And then, so it was like, okay, well, I know how to work in nine to five.

283
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,840
So I went and worked at guitar center for two months.

284
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,440
And while there I reached out to different producers in the area.

285
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,960
I was like, okay, well, I need to touch more people and artists only need so much work.

286
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,200
But managers, producers, A&Rs, you know, those are the ones that are going to feed

287
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,120
you multiple projects, multiple artists.

288
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,360
Those are the ones I need to make relationships with at that time.

289
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:50,880
Well, there's no A&Rs here.

290
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,760
There's no real managers here because there wasn't really any artists here.

291
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,480
And so I found producers and I was nickel and diamond to producers.

292
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,600
I was like, how much you paying for mix?

293
00:13:59,600 --> 00:13:59,920
A hundred.

294
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,760
I do it for 60, you know, I do it for 60.

295
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,240
Well, I was doing 30, 40 mixes a month, you know, it's still barely scraping by.

296
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,560
But I was like, charge whatever you want.

297
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:11,920
You pay me $60 a mix.

298
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:12,960
Take whatever you want off the top.

299
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,440
I don't care.

300
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:13,840
I love that.

301
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,360
Give me $60 a mix.

302
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,400
Man, I was getting flooded.

303
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,840
I was getting flooded with mixes.

304
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,240
So yeah, that's kind of like, I mean, we've kind of done a similar thing with that pitch

305
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,880
because, you know, for the longest time, everyone was like, get in touch with the

306
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,360
music supervisor, get in touch with the music supervisor.

307
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,760
And I was thinking, who's the music supervisor's boss?

308
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,080
And then who's that boss's boss?

309
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,920
And who's that boss's boss's boss?

310
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,360
And if you can get to that, they got a hundred supervisors or a hundred agencies or whatever.

311
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,640
So you did the same thing.

312
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,720
And when I was just producing, I did a similar thing where I tried to get in touch with

313
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:52,480
managers or and ours or somebody who or like somebody who had a blog that just

314
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,000
talked to a bunch of artists.

315
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,880
I think that's a lot of a lot of people in business, whether you're an artist or

316
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,360
producer or you have a company or whatever.

317
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,320
The main point is you want to get to the person who knows everybody else because you

318
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:07,920
don't have to build your own network.

319
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,120
You really kind of just got to get in with somebody else's network and that'll

320
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:12,960
open up the doors everywhere else.

321
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,840
It cuts down on footwork or legwork or whatever, however you want to word it.

322
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,080
So you're not using as much energy to acquire these clients.

323
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,000
You're letting someone else do it for you.

324
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,240
And kickbacks are always really, to me, beneficial, especially in a shady industry

325
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,280
like the music business.

326
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:29,680
Right.

327
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,840
You know, like, I don't care what anybody says.

328
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,280
The music industry is probably the shadiest industry you could possibly ever work in,

329
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,480
but it's maneuverable.

330
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:36,720
Right.

331
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,760
If you don't understand how other industries work and different things like that,

332
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:41,440
it's fine.

333
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,800
That's all I really know.

334
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,720
And so I was able, just the kickback part of it is no matter who I talk to,

335
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,320
I was like, hey, whatever you give me, I'll kick you back 10%.

336
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,360
I'll kick you back 15%, depending on what it is.

337
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,200
So you actively try to incentivize all of your friends, basically.

338
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,320
You're just like, hey, like.

339
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,440
I mean, business acquaintances, associates, people that I met.

340
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,040
It becomes your friends here.

341
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,680
It was like, what I do is I'm always down to do something on spec.

342
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,680
It's not, I don't look at it as free work.

343
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,840
I look at it as a favor or an investment.

344
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,160
I think Tony Maserati said that.

345
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,040
He's like, I don't do free work, but I'll do you a favor, you know?

346
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,720
And that's a really good way to look at it.

347
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,440
Like, if I find anybody that I think is of quality,

348
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,640
or if I find anybody that I know is really doing it,

349
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,240
I'm like, hey, man, I do this for real.

350
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:28,480
Right.

351
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:39,840
I'll show you.

352
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:53,200
That becomes a value add.

353
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,680
There's such a difference between networking and meeting people.

354
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,840
Networking is kind of something like I have a service or some value,

355
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:02,880
and so do you.

356
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,080
And sooner or later, I want you to think of me so we can exchange value.

357
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,680
Networking isn't just going to the bar and meeting a buddy.

358
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,840
It's like you said, it's with purpose for something later

359
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,480
that I'm trying to set myself up so you remember me.

360
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,960
For somebody like me, where I work with artists,

361
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,280
knowing a great engineer is now a value add for me because I can say,

362
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,880
hey, artist, you're looking to get your music mixed too?

363
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,080
Now, I know a guy.

364
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,560
And then artists might come to me, hey, man, I trust your opinion.

365
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:38,800
I'm trying to understand sync.

366
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:40,080
Where do I go?

367
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,840
And I go, well, now it's cool for me to say, I got a guy.

368
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:44,880
He's my buddy.

369
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,080
Look, he's doing this.

370
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,320
And now this guy's like, oh, he's connected.

371
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,960
And now you get a benefit because you get a customer.

372
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,920
So networking is like if you can show, hey, I got some value,

373
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,120
you've got some value, we can probably cross-pollinate here.

374
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,520
Well, it's the classic.

375
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:02,800
It's the idiot's currency.

376
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,480
Hey, I can't do shit for you, but I got a friend that I trust.

377
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:07,440
Agencies.

378
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,680
I mean, the thing is people kind of will shit talk like

379
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,200
how important trust is.

380
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:21,200
But if you really think about it, there's two things of pieces of value of when you

381
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,000
suggest using somebody else that you know is firstly,

382
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,520
you've already done all of that critical thinking of just making sure

383
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,840
that they're going to do a good job.

384
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,800
And then secondly, it also kind of in a way deepens your relationship with that person.

385
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,440
And if it turns out to be a good thing, maybe they get a kickback or whatever.

386
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,600
They're going to be more incentivized to talk to you a lot more.

387
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,000
And you just do that a hundred times.

388
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,520
You got a thousand clients.

389
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:49,920
Right.

390
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:50,640
I mean, you're good.

391
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:51,200
So, okay.

392
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,800
So say one time with this example, an artist comes to me and says,

393
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,720
hey, I'm looking to do some sync.

394
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:57,520
Do you know a guy?

395
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,400
And then I give them to you and he says, hey, Elliot sent me your way.

396
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,280
Like, can you help me out?

397
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:01,600
Yeah.

398
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,040
I bet the next time an artist goes to you and says, hey, I've already got sync down.

399
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,480
Can you help me with my marketing?

400
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,360
What are you going to do?

401
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:08,880
Well, I'm going to hit up my boy Elliot.

402
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,320
Well, and it's like you said, it's a favor.

403
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,000
And in a way, it is weirdly a form of currency.

404
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:16,320
Yeah.

405
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,000
But it's not like, hey, I did this.

406
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,560
I expect you to do something for me.

407
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,960
But it's kind of like, hey, this is the point of networking.

408
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,120
Like, let's all be a network.

409
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:25,440
Yeah.

410
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,160
And I think people are weird about kickbacks.

411
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,280
And like, you know, in music, everyone thinks everything's just icky.

412
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,840
When you talk about, like, negotiations or whatever.

413
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,520
But actually, one of my buddies is a big photographer here in town.

414
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,760
You know, he's worked with hypebeasts, Nike, Adidas.

415
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,640
And he knows a lot of, like, creative directors that are doing ads and shit like that.

416
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,000
And they all need music.

417
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,840
And, you know, they all kind of have, like, an issue with companies that you can just

418
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,200
license any of their couple thousand tracks for their needs.

419
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,960
They just need stuff a little bit more custom.

420
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,440
And that pitch can do that, which is great.

421
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,040
So they're an ideal client for us.

422
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,600
Now, I wanted to get an intro.

423
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:17,440
And I think people give their friends the benefit of doubt, of the idea that they're

424
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,680
going to put together a solution.

425
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:25,280
But I've noticed it's actually extremely refreshing in the music industry when you

426
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,840
just straight up say, this is what I would like.

427
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,480
This is how I could benefit you.

428
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,720
I respect you and your time.

429
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,520
This is what I would like to pay you for that, you know?

430
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,840
And I basically just said to him, listen, you've garnered a lot of trust with these

431
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,720
creative directors.

432
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,920
I mean, your work shows for it.

433
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,040
You're getting hired on all these gigs and everybody loves you.

434
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,280
I know you worked your ass off for that.

435
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,160
I know that wasn't given.

436
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,120
I know you spent hundreds of hours trying to make all this stuff happen.

437
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:54,000
And now you're there.

438
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,280
I don't want that for free.

439
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,040
Like, I value that.

440
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,040
And you shouldn't give that out to people.

441
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,000
I would like to pay you and I'll sign an NDA.

442
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:02,640
I don't care.

443
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:04,800
You can have me sign it.

444
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,520
I'm not going to.

445
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,600
Nobody's going to know, but I would like an intro to this person.

446
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,400
And all you need to do is just vouch and say, I'm a good guy.

447
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:14,560
And then I can take it from there.

448
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,960
I want you to call me a good guy to this person.

449
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,920
If you truly mean it.

450
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,360
If you think I'm a piece of shit, then don't do that.

451
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:20,880
But you know what I'm saying?

452
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,760
And that has worked tremendously, you know?

453
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,000
And again, it's very refreshing when you just straight up say it, you know?

454
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,600
Because that's so rare in our industry where people straight up say what they want.

455
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,360
Everyone's always trying to beat around the bush.

456
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,520
They're always scared because they're like, I don't want to look.

457
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,400
They're creatives.

458
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,520
The issue that I've always ran into with everybody is the music industry

459
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,600
is a bunch of business-minded people that are lacking in talent,

460
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,440
that take advantage of creative people and monetize their creativity

461
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:55,040
and also their lack of business ability or backbone or whatever you want to call it.

462
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,080
And they're scared to negotiate, to talk numbers, to do all these things.

463
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,240
But the business people aren't, you know?

464
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,080
I think those people are taking advantage of the trust that the artist has in them.

465
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,840
Because, all right, an artist, a major artist probably has an attorney,

466
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,640
probably has a manager, and they're just hoping or trusting that these guys got it covered.

467
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:25,360
And then those people have either because they're unable to see,

468
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:29,600
like they're not at the level of understanding the contract they're reading.

469
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,640
Or they're saying, I know this guy, trust me, and he's just going to,

470
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,120
if I vouch for this for him, he's going to be good.

471
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:36,640
He's not going to look into it.

472
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,520
And then I'm going to be...

473
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:44,480
I think another thing is people really think that a lot of stuff that happens in the industry

474
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,560
is magical and you're just kind of bestowed this great opportunity.

475
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,520
Whereas really, everything is just ours.

476
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:52,080
That's it.

477
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,760
There still is, but it's not as nepotistic as it was in majors,

478
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,680
because they know they're losing market share

479
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,560
and the executives are paid their bonuses on market share.

480
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,920
They're not paid their bonuses based on profitability.

481
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,840
That's a really good piece of insight, just so you know.

482
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,000
That's why everyone gets these massive deals.

483
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,200
Anyways, I digress.

484
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:20,240
But regarding learning sales or marketing or landing these deals and going over that stuff,

485
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,200
it's just ours.

486
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,560
Our licensing system for that pitch, I'm saying this publicly and I should be more...

487
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,560
It's this magical fucking thing that it's proprietary.

488
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,040
It's very...

489
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,440
Literally, it just took me...

490
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,640
Our very first version of it took me two weeks straight.

491
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,160
I locked myself in my fucking room for 14 hours a day

492
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,320
and I had specific things I had to get done to build out our first licensing system.

493
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,240
It's just a series of crazy automations going all these different places.

494
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,680
I had to write it out on a fucking whiteboard and it was crazy.

495
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,720
I had a goddamn panic attack, but built it out and it's just hours of work.

496
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:01,680
I'm not that fucking smart.

497
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:06,560
What you're saying is a lot of these artists think that they can't.

498
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,320
It's like they're trained to think that they can't.

499
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,400
Whereas really, this isn't difficult.

500
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,440
It's just hours of work.

501
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,840
Then energy factors into that too, because it just depends on where you're at.

502
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,840
What do you need to put your best product out there creatively too?

503
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,160
A lot of people get burned out on it or a lot of people have big issues

504
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,880
like balancing the business.

505
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760
I was just going to say a lot of the issue I see is...

506
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,080
I'm coming from the artist perspective.

507
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:34,720
It's interesting.

508
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,240
You're coming from a producer background.

509
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,160
You're coming from an engineering background.

510
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,520
I used to make the music and I made the mistake of not working hand in hand

511
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,560
with the producer ever.

512
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,800
Then I was way too late to the game to get a good engineer.

513
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,280
I got one, but I was years too late.

514
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,680
My music suffered because I put, in terms of energy,

515
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,280
90% of my energy went into coming up with the idea, getting the song done.

516
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,160
Then I completely winged everything else, including the mix.

517
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,640
When I was making music back in the day, I didn't even have stems.

518
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,960
I downloaded the wave premium lease from some guy on BeatStars.

519
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,760
I was like, it's the wave.

520
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:14,320
It's good enough.

521
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,560
I didn't even have the fucking stems laid out.

522
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,560
So I couldn't even turn up the drums.

523
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,960
You didn't have the energy to do the other stuff.

524
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:23,520
That's right.

525
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:31,280
The energy, I didn't balance it because I was under the assumption that the good work

526
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:36,720
would compensate for the lack of work on the marketing or the business.

527
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,680
Whereas if you had focused on the marketing, the business,

528
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,000
and took less energy on the work, you would have probably gone farther than you did.

529
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,080
The most successful product is typically the one that's told the most.

530
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,000
It's not the one that is actually the best.

531
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,600
Whoever tells the story, the best and the biggest.

532
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:55,440
That's literally it.

533
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,600
So going back to you networking everything,

534
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,360
you were doing a bunch of favors for a lot of people, always showing up.

535
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:04,880
What was kind of the next step then?

536
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,880
Did you kind of notice a general shift in your career where things started?

537
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,800
You started getting some better projects.

538
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:13,840
Yeah.

539
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,120
Well, the main shift when I was working for Kane, it was a little bit tough

540
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,480
because he was such a big producer that he didn't care.

541
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,040
At the time, well, I'm not going to say he didn't,

542
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,280
but what I was doing was I was mainly mixing his production for him to shop.

543
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520
So I would have records with big songwriters on it in this production,

544
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,120
and so I would try to make it sound as close to a finished record as possible.

545
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:39,680
And that really helped me understand what major label execs were looking for

546
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,480
and things like that.

547
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,600
So my mixing adjusted there, and I started to understand formatting better,

548
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,760
what they were doing transition-wise,

549
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,640
how they were getting the sounds they were getting, those type of things.

550
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:51,840
So that helped.

551
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,800
But during that time, I wasn't able to work on the final aspect of these records,

552
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,480
so I really wasn't getting credit for anything.

553
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,400
And so what happened was I kind of got the opportunity to work on a couple records,

554
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,120
and I had to really, really, really fight for credits on those

555
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,240
because what happened was with the credit, it gave me—

556
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,560
then it was sort of like, oh, he's worked on a record, cool.

557
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,040
And so one of the first records was—

558
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,200
So it was the first one that kind of got you.

559
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:21,600
Right.

560
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,520
So the first one was this record called Tied Up by KC Veggies.

561
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,080
Okay.

562
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:32,160
And a girl named PJ, she was the writer on it.

563
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,680
Kane was the producer on it.

564
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,280
And we worked while I was staying in Atlanta for like six weeks at one time,

565
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720
and she came down and cut all these amazing records in like one day.

566
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,600
She was there for four days.

567
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,280
We didn't do anything for three days, and on the last day,

568
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:44,960
they just started pounding out songs.

569
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,960
And some of these songs are still better than—

570
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,000
and they were never released.

571
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,800
They were better than a lot of the stuff I've ever heard.

572
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,320
But a couple of them did get placed, and this was one of them.

573
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,240
And then it happened to be placed,

574
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,800
and they sent it back to the producer for additional production.

575
00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,600
And he sent it to me.

576
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,520
I was like, please, you know, let me mix this.

577
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,080
Please.

578
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:11,040
Because there was one other opportunity where there was a song with Nicki Minaj and Wiz Khalifa.

579
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,160
I forgot the name of it.

580
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,000
But he's like, I pull up in this white on white.

581
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,240
I don't know.

582
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:16,960
I'm not going to access it right now.

583
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,000
I forgot the name.

584
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,040
True Colors is the name of it.

585
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,320
I just had to sing the hook in my head.

586
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,520
I can't sing for anybody.

587
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:22,320
I think you sound beautiful.

588
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:22,640
Thank you.

589
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,520
I appreciate it.

590
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720
And I tried to mix that, and it didn't make the cut.

591
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,000
And so I was like, oh, shit.

592
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:28,800
I still need to go back.

593
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,040
But with this one, I did a ton of mixing.

594
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,880
And they ended up still sending it to a mixer.

595
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,200
But I was like, please, please, please.

596
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,600
Can you please just give me assistant credit?

597
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:38,480
I did all this work.

598
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,440
I did all the clean edits.

599
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:40,720
I did the assistant work.

600
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,080
I basically did the entire mix.

601
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,840
And he came back and tweeted just a little bit.

602
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,000
And I finally got a credit on that, and the record ended up going gold.

603
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920
So when it went gold, I put in—

604
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,000
I ended up going and getting a plaque for it about a year later.

605
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,520
And during that time, my skill level hadn't changed.

606
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,480
I mean, other than progressively growing, but not exponentially.

607
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,480
And the second that that plaque came in the mail,

608
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,880
the people that I was good friends with and connected with at Full Sail

609
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,480
called me and were like, hey, I think you're the right guy for this project.

610
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,760
Because I just had that one plaque that people could see.

611
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,360
And they're like, OK, Kevin does it for real.

612
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,440
And they started sending me projects.

613
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,960
And that's where it shifted.

614
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,560
And so I was always playing that game.

615
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,080
I always kind of play the long game.

616
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Not that I'm trying to take advantage of somebody.

617
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,920
But I'm like, I'll put in the effort.

618
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Even now, I'm meeting with new artists that I think have potential in two years.

619
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,440
And let's do some groundwork.

620
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,520
And sometimes they run off on you, and sometimes you get burned.

621
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,960
But other times they hit.

622
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,080
And with the baby, I'd been working with him since 2015.

623
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,640
But I was getting plaques before him, before he took off.

624
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,640
So I was starting to work this angle here, work this angle here, work this angle here.

625
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,040
It just happened to be the biggest artist that came out of almost America,

626
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,640
the biggest rapper that year.

627
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,960
We had the most streamed song in the world that year.

628
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:59,680
What was it?

629
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,040
I think Rockstar?

630
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:01,840
Wild.

631
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,360
Yeah, so I didn't mix Rockstar.

632
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,480
But up until that, everything up until kind of that point,

633
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,160
I've done like five albums with them.

634
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760
And two of them were released on major labels and stuff.

635
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,680
And it just, at certain points, the way that they work with time constraint,

636
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:17,840
sometimes they just have to run with the rough.

637
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,000
Or they have to do this or that, or other things.

638
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,800
You know, so sometimes they do that because I ended up mixing that album

639
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,160
and we ran it too close and we couldn't get it to Mastering in time.

640
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,920
And they're like, okay, we just got to go with the other mixes.

641
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,360
So I still have all the sessions.

642
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:34,560
I still have all the stuff from the project.

643
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,640
That was one of those weeks where it wasn't available for 100 hours.

644
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,920
We couldn't get lunch.

645
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:38,880
We typically get ribs.

646
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,680
We couldn't get lunch.

647
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,200
And we're still knocking it out.

648
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,600
And then sometimes during that time, he'd hit me back at three in the morning.

649
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,480
And one change is I'd be asleep because I've been waiting around all day.

650
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,120
And it was just really hard circumstances for that.

651
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:51,920
But that's okay.

652
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,320
Because the time it happened before, they pulled up on me.

653
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,680
We mix the whole album in a day.

654
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,120
The Kirk album, we mix that in a whole day.

655
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,440
And it was the number one album in the country.

656
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:00,000
You know what I mean?

657
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,240
Just pound some coffee and go, okay.

658
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,440
Yeah, I don't drink coffee.

659
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,440
But we got a bottle of liquor and just kept it moving.

660
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,920
And bourbon will keep me going.

661
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,120
You ever hit this guy bourbon?

662
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:12,240
Yeah.

663
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,320
He's a happy boy.

664
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:36,880
And that's another thing about the industry.

665
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,880
There's no hard feelings on those type of things.

666
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360
It's like, man, you either capitalize on it or you don't.

667
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,160
I'm happy to have the opportunity to get to touch these.

668
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:46,960
These records.

669
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,920
But at the same time, it didn't work out for that.

670
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,760
And Rockstar happened to be his biggest record.

671
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,840
But I still have like four and a half billion streams of records I've mixed.

672
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,880
And The Baby has a large majority of that from Baby on Baby and Kirk.

673
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,640
But I think what you did phenomenally is,

674
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,680
and I remember we kind of had this discussion.

675
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,400
This is when you were at the Grammys.

676
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,720
You had two Grammy nominations that year.

677
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,080
And we had talked then and the week after.

678
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,960
And we were talking and it's like, you don't make it once you get to that point.

679
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,000
It's like, that's the catalyst to truly build.

680
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,440
What you were saying is people treated you differently when you got that gold record.

681
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,360
A thing for me is when I was just producing, when I went on tour in Australia,

682
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,440
when I came back, now I was an internationally touring producer.

683
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,680
But nothing changed.

684
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:42,640
Nothing changed.

685
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:43,600
I wasn't better at my craft.

686
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,200
And the quality of what you were giving them, maybe slightly.

687
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,000
It was probably worse.

688
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,880
I had more clients.

689
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:49,920
I was like, please stop.

690
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,760
But nothing changes other than the perception.

691
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,520
Your perception is reality.

692
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,720
People like trophies.

693
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,320
People like seeing something tangible.

694
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,480
And that's like our members in that pitch.

695
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,160
Anytime they get their first placement,

696
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,400
share that everywhere and let everybody know that you do this.

697
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:07,680
Because you will get more deals.

698
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,760
It's like the first cuts deepest or whatever the fucking song was.

699
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,840
But if you get your first deal, that's the hardest to get.

700
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,240
You getting your first gold probably took you 10 years.

701
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,640
You getting your next one probably took 10 days or 10 months.

702
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,360
It was quick.

703
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Yeah.

704
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,960
And that's same thing.

705
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,560
Our first placement took us a while.

706
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,680
But then we started getting hundreds of them every month.

707
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,080
And it compounds because as your perception grows,

708
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,080
your access to opportunity that would look at that perception

709
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,800
and say, this is worthy, that's when you move up.

710
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,120
People just aren't very strategic about it.

711
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,640
And they think it's like, oh, you just made it.

712
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,520
No.

713
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,520
How many fucking people we know with a huge credit

714
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,280
that can't pay their fucking rent?

715
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:49,920
Yeah.

716
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,240
It took, what, 10 years to be an overnight success.

717
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,160
Yeah, totally.

718
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,040
Gambling, if anybody drinks beer, I think they have a slogan.

719
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,720
It was like something like that.

720
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,960
It took 100 years to be an overnight success or whatever.

721
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Chris Golbo has a really, really good book.

722
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,520
It's like 365 days to overnight success.

723
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:07,920
Yeah.

724
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,560
Really good book.

725
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:09,120
Plug in that.

726
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,200
Anyways, so you started getting a bunch of those.

727
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,280
And at this time, you also had Black Pearl Studio.

728
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,200
That helped too.

729
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,280
So like the perception of it, because I was the first person

730
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,200
that came in the city and kind of went with what a newer

731
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,800
studio design at the time was.

732
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:27,600
I reached out.

733
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,480
OK, so funny story.

734
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,440
This is how Kevin and I met.

735
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,480
I was looking at, so this is pre-Charlotte, pre-people

736
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,600
calling this place Charlotte.

737
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,120
Before, it was Charlotte, North Carolina,

738
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,200
or they got us confused with Charlottesville

739
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,560
and those crazy motherfuckers.

740
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,400
So this was like earlier music industry Charlotte.

741
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,400
And I was on Instagram.

742
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,880
And at that point, I was kind of at the point

743
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,120
where I was like, fuck, should I move to New York?

744
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,000
Shira and I were thinking about moving to New York.

745
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,200
And we were thinking about kind of just ending in Charlotte.

746
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,040
But at that time, I don't even know if I told you that.

747
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,840
We were really actively thinking about moving to New York.

748
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,480
And I saw your Instagram post.

749
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,160
And I just saw a post on Discovery,

750
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,320
and it was a fucking sick looking studio.

751
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,920
And I looked, and it was in Charlotte.

752
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,920
And I was like, wait a second.

753
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,040
Where is this?

754
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:17,760
Wait a second.

755
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:18,880
So I reached out to you.

756
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,800
And I think I was just like, can I take you out to coffee?

757
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,480
And you said you didn't drink coffee.

758
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,560
You didn't tell me that until we got there.

759
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,680
But it was pretty, you know, some value.

760
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,600
Can I pay for something for you?

761
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,720
And then we met.

762
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,960
And then your studio just started blowing the fuck up here.

763
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,640
It was the place that, I mean, we had so many hangs there,

764
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,640
parties, everybody was there.

765
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,960
And then it's just everything catapulted.

766
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:45,760
So you had that as a-

767
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,360
Well, because I was working that angle too.

768
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,120
But while I was working this angle,

769
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,800
while I was working that angle.

770
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,800
So I was working all this stuff.

771
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,080
And it just happened to work in, let's say, three out of the eight.

772
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,320
Well, people don't like where they are.

773
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920
So it's like, if you have a global credit,

774
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,880
you can use that for local monetization, you know?

775
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:05,600
So yeah, you had that.

776
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:11,120
It started blowing up and you switched studios this year.

777
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:11,760
So what was kind of-

778
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:12,400
Well, two years ago.

779
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,000
Two years ago, right?

780
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,720
So what was kind of the reason for that?

781
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:18,000
Were you changing your business models?

782
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040
Now that you're at this place, where's it going?

783
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,280
The business park where we were at last time

784
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,200
wasn't doing a good job of taking care of the actual place.

785
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,320
And I was getting burned out.

786
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,760
I was also doing a lot of students

787
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,560
through a recording, radio, film connection.

788
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,960
And so people would come in for interviews

789
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,400
and the business park would be dirty

790
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,480
and there was nothing really I could do about it.

791
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,680
I didn't like that.

792
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,440
And I remember setting a date.

793
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,800
I took everything out for the pandemic

794
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,160
because I was worried about people breaking in.

795
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,600
And then after two months, I set a goal of June 1st

796
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,320
or something like that.

797
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,000
I'm going to put everything we're going to start,

798
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:54,800
get back rolling.

799
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,520
And I brought all my stuff up there

800
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,280
and I couldn't put it in.

801
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,920
I didn't have the drive to even install it.

802
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,000
And I was like, there's a problem.

803
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,200
I was also going through a terrible divorce separation.

804
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,640
I was getting cheated on by this person

805
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,640
that was emotionally abusive.

806
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:11,920
I was drained with that.

807
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,800
And so all that, yeah, thanks.

808
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Went through that time together, buddy.

809
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,200
Yeah, Mark got the call a lot.

810
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:21,920
So that was really tough, but I was like,

811
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,360
I need to pivot.

812
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,880
And right at that time was when I had stepped away

813
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,560
from the relationship and everything like that.

814
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,080
And I was able to breathe and relax

815
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,040
and a new opportunity came up here, uptown.

816
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,000
And it made sense.

817
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,040
And we had a little wiggle room with everything.

818
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,800
And so I was like, all right, let's just make a shift.

819
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,560
And I wanted to partner up with my buddy Danny.

820
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,640
So Danny really didn't have anything too much

821
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,040
in the studio other than sweat equity that he put in.

822
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,120
But I was like, look, I need a partner in this,

823
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,320
especially with what I was going through.

824
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,520
And Danny really stepped in and Danny kind of,

825
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,760
we made it into what it is now, safe and sound,

826
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,320
which is more of a combination of who we both are.

827
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,160
And so it's not just like Black Pearl Studios

828
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:02,880
and things like that.

829
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,200
So it's more of like a space for creatives

830
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,520
where you can really get some awesome ideas out

831
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,440
in an environment where it's like,

832
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:12,320
one of the things that I didn't like about the last studio

833
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,160
was even though I spent a lot of time and energy

834
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,720
and money on designing it, it was really sleek.

835
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:18,160
It was essentially a white studio

836
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,000
that you could have color-changing lights in.

837
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:21,520
And so a lot of people would come in

838
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,680
with square white rooms and not do anything

839
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,120
and get color-changing lights.

840
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,200
And it would get a similar vibe.

841
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,360
And I'm like, okay, so even though ours is far superior,

842
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,040
people were able to copy this too much.

843
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,720
So we wanted to go for something that was more,

844
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,080
aesthetically harder to duplicate.

845
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,280
You can't just build a hundred-year-old brick wall.

846
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,480
Right, right, right, yeah.

847
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,480
So what's the Instagram for safe and sound?

848
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,120
Safe and sound 704.

849
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,160
Okay, cool.

850
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,120
It's new, sorry for the...

851
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,320
Yeah, so they just rebranded, which is really awesome.

852
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,600
I dig the name, dude.

853
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,240
I love it.

854
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:55,760
It grew on me.

855
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,120
At first, I thought it was a little sensitive

856
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,160
because I'm mainly dealing with the hip-hop world.

857
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,760
And I'm like, oh, it's a soft-ass name.

858
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,760
Yeah, people are not sensitive to hip-hop.

859
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,000
But in general, though, it comes across well.

860
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,320
And at the end of the day, our people come in there

861
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,840
for what the name is or the quality that we're providing.

862
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,680
We're all multi-platinum engineers.

863
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,840
We have four engineers on staff.

864
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,240
Three are multi-platinum engineers.

865
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:22,000
That fourth one is pissed.

866
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:22,800
I know.

867
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,000
He's a little younger.

868
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,040
He's a good engineer, too, but yeah.

869
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,000
He'll get there.

870
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,200
But you're going to come there.

871
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,600
You're going to legit get industry-quality...

872
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,520
We have industry-quality equipment.

873
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:32,880
We have a really nice booth.

874
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,320
The vibe is really cool in there.

875
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:35,680
You can really create...

876
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,920
It's in a cool spot uptown, so you can leave straight out

877
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,800
and go to bars and restaurants and take a break.

878
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,000
Yeah, nobody knows it's up there.

879
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:42,800
Nobody bothers you.

880
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,400
There's not 100 people in the studio.

881
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:44,960
Yeah.

882
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:45,600
Yeah, so...

883
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,480
I got to check it out.

884
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,280
Yeah, for any time.

885
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,320
We'll do content in there.

886
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:48,800
Well, yes.

887
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,680
So my friend and I, we made music literally 15 years ago

888
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,640
at this point.

889
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,040
And...

890
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:55,920
Roger Bar Metsvah.

891
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:58,880
Sorry.

892
00:39:58,880 --> 00:39:59,680
Month of March.

893
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,760
And we hung out last weekend, and we were like,

894
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,680
dude, we should make two or three more songs

895
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,520
and have a little reunion EP.

896
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,360
And I was like, fuck it, let's do it.

897
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,600
So I might be putting my musician pants back on

898
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,760
and we'll need our studio and our producer.

899
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,320
You'll get us.

900
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:15,920
That'd be really funny.

901
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,120
I'll bring Bervin, a lot of it.

902
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:18,720
We'll need it.

903
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:19,440
We'll need it.

904
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,760
But anyways, that's fucking sick.

905
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:22,320
Cool.

906
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,320
Yeah, so that's kind of like the shift in where we think.

907
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:24,880
Yeah.

908
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,360
The journey's like snakes a lot of different ways.

909
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:27,680
Yeah.

910
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,400
And I think a lot of that, like with a new rebranding,

911
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,200
it's in a way, it's not even...

912
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,040
Like the people that know Black Pearl

913
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,600
know that you are going through this rebranding.

914
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,640
But everyone who is meeting Safe and Sound for the first time

915
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,160
isn't going to know that, especially like in a web environment.

916
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,640
That'll play really well with people who are not coming here physically.

917
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,560
When you are trying to roll out that new web thing,

918
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,320
I think it'll play really well to get more people.

919
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,280
Black Pearl does seem a little heavy metal or hip hop.

920
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,160
Not in a bad way, but I think Safe and Sound is more broad.

921
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,720
And when you're trying to open up that web, like a class to...

922
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,400
Oh, you want to mix folk music?

923
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,640
We'll teach you how to do it here.

924
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,840
You want to do hip hop too?

925
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:12,720
We do that as well.

926
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,040
I think in a way, you have generalized what you can appeal to.

927
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,160
And I think that's a good move for the next move you're trying to make

928
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680
with that like out of your building, growing your business.

929
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:25,760
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

930
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,320
I think it's a much more of a representation of how we are now.

931
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,520
Danny and I both, I think we both have taken a lot of time to heal from things,

932
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,640
not to get into history or anything like that.

933
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,520
But you know what I mean, like really just be a little bit more mindful

934
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,400
and a little bit more sound physically and mentally.

935
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,800
And we're just in a calmer place in a much better place.

936
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,880
The music industry will beat you down and just everything with life around that.

937
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,640
So when I...

938
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,200
This was kind of funny a few years ago,

939
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,240
because everybody was telling me how hard the music industry, et cetera, is.

940
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,080
And everybody bitches in this industry.

941
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,200
So I always kind of take that with a grain of salt

942
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,400
because most of the people that I know that are complaining about the industry

943
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,120
would just complain about other shit too.

944
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,120
Or like they should talk to their friends or whatever.

945
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,480
So I'm typically like, oh, insecurity is a good way.

946
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:22,640
But what I thought was interesting is I did kind of like a...

947
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,680
I took a few different books on like industry environments

948
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,480
and I was reading through everything and it came out of...

949
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:37,120
It came out to what makes an industry actually difficult to survive in.

950
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,320
Because surviving in the medical field

951
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,200
is a lot easier than surviving in the airline industry.

952
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,640
But they have like different problems.

953
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,280
And anyways, without getting too geeked out about it,

954
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:50,800
the music industry actually,

955
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,200
like literally according to all of these different analysts,

956
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,600
is a very difficult industry.

957
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,120
It's a total pain in the ass.

958
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,760
You don't really have any customer loyalty a lot of times.

959
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,120
It's very easy to enter the industry.

960
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,480
Low margins, what was the other one?

961
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,040
Yeah, a ton of competition that comes with the use of entry.

962
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:11,760
Yeah, so it's...

963
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,600
And who really cares about a saturated market?

964
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:17,760
Because if you're good at what you do, you'll be fine.

965
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,600
But it's still, anybody can enter it and say that they do it.

966
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,880
Even if someone on Instagram,

967
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,640
they could bullshit and say they're a Grammy winner.

968
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,840
And like, is there a great way to look up that sort of shit?

969
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,120
A lot of people with creds are kind of bullshitting.

970
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,240
I see a lot of times.

971
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,920
And to the casual viewer, or a casual artist

972
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,760
who's not going to take the time to go look it up,

973
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:38,880
they're just going to go, whoa.

974
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,160
Or in how many people, like you can buy plaques.

975
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,880
Look for the hologram.

976
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:45,600
They're not the legit ones.

977
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:46,560
Look for the hologram.

978
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,600
They're not legit and people who have one will know,

979
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,960
but to everyone else who's just like,

980
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,880
I got a hundred thousand streams on Spotify

981
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,000
and they sent me a plaque.

982
00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:01,440
I saw a fucking guru, they had a plaque and it said 500,000 plays

983
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,040
and they were selling a course on how to market yourself

984
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,080
so you can get plaques.

985
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,200
And they just have 500,000 plays.

986
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:09,760
That's easy.

987
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,720
They just got it made from whoever, like a framing shop.

988
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,200
Running Facebook ads, five bucks a day for a year,

989
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,400
you get 500,000.

990
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:19,520
What the fuck?

991
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,360
That was just insane to me.

992
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:21,860
Yeah.

993
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,280
Because people don't take the time to look into it that much.

994
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,160
And it's part of what you were talking about earlier

995
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,920
is when you have that thing,

996
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,920
the common person doesn't necessarily know

997
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,720
that yours is way more certifiable and real

998
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:42,560
than like this person you're talking about.

999
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,360
So the casual person, it's the same.

1000
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,600
Well, him and I are both waiting on plaques.

1001
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:48,480
This is like...

1002
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:49,360
Oh, it takes forever.

1003
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,080
It takes forever.

1004
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
And the reason why is because you can order plaques,

1005
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,440
but there's no certification on it.

1006
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,400
So you want to look at the...

1007
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,200
Yeah, the hologram, the R-I-A-A.

1008
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,960
R-I-A-A, hologram certification.

1009
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,440
And that has to be done with the label and the plaque company.

1010
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:05,920
Yeah.

1011
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:06,880
They have to communicate with you on it.

1012
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,160
It's not even like I've got A&Rs tied into emails,

1013
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,280
managers tied into emails.

1014
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,880
Like, hey, Kevin makes this whole project.

1015
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,880
You can check it on Tidal, on Genius, all that stuff.

1016
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,560
They're like, yeah, no, I've got to check my people.

1017
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,240
So there's that.

1018
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:22,480
But also for anybody that's wondering,

1019
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,200
for you to get it based on streams,

1020
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,600
to get an I-R-A-A certified gold plaque, it's 75 million streams.

1021
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,120
That's for a single.

1022
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,320
No, it's on an album, on a single.

1023
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:39,840
So they count albums as 10.

1024
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,680
So 750 million streams, your album goes gold.

1025
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,720
So 101.750, 775 million streams.

1026
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:49,520
Slow down there, buddy.

1027
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,880
150 million streams is a platinum single.

1028
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:53,440
Right.

1029
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:59,680
So 750 million streams is a gold album across the album.

1030
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:08,320
And 1.5 billion streams makes it a platinum album.

1031
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,080
Do you know what a diamond is?

1032
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:10,800
Diamond is 10.

1033
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:13,440
So we're not getting more diamonds.

1034
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,400
It's 10 times platinum.

1035
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,920
No, they still have diamonds.

1036
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:16,880
Who's getting a diamond?

1037
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,640
Old records that have started to accumulate.

1038
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:20,960
Who most recently got it?

1039
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,000
Yeah, Eminence got some.

1040
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,960
Who had the most recent diamond record?

1041
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,080
I just saw it pop up.

1042
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:28,160
Yeah, I guess it takes a while to pop up.

1043
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,560
I know what I saw that too, and I don't remember.

1044
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,160
It was like an older album.

1045
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:32,480
I can't remember.

1046
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,080
MC Hammer has a diamond record.

1047
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:34,720
Now, shit.

1048
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:35,040
Yeah.

1049
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:35,600
Good for him.

1050
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,120
He probably doesn't even give a fuck at this point.

1051
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,560
Got the record and he's like, oh, great.

1052
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:41,600
He's got no money left.

1053
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:42,240
So really?

1054
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:43,920
Well, one of the old town plaques to me, bro.

1055
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,200
Old town road was, that was a one that went diamond.

1056
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,000
A diamond single?

1057
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:48,800
Was it?

1058
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:49,440
Yeah.

1059
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,440
But if it's a single, well, never mind.

1060
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,680
There's on albums and stuff like that.

1061
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,560
But to get a gold album or a platinum album, that's a lot of streams.

1062
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:57,060
Yeah.

1063
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,200
But then there's also factored in video plays on YouTube.

1064
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,480
They factor in now actual physical sales.

1065
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,200
No, all of them have kind of been recently, all the streaming stuff have been,

1066
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,280
because it used to be 500,000 physical copy sales are a gold album.

1067
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,000
But what would happen was the record label would buy them and print them.

1068
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,040
So they could, as soon as it came out, it would be a gold single,

1069
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,600
because they printed 500,000 bottoms, sold them to resellers,

1070
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,640
whoever is retail stores and things like that.

1071
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,960
And then because the retail stores bought them from them,

1072
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,600
then they already counted as being gold, regardless if all these sold or not.

1073
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:36,320
Right, jeez.

1074
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:37,040
You know what I mean?

1075
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:37,760
Yep.

1076
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:38,240
And so.

1077
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:39,040
It's fucking crazy.

1078
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,240
So it's literally just what was ordered.

1079
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:40,640
Yeah.

1080
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,360
But if it sells out, then they order more and it keeps going.

1081
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,440
That's how people would buy into that.

1082
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,080
And they're not buying five, they didn't make 500,000 copies

1083
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,160
buy them to make the record go gold.

1084
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,840
It's because there was a demand for it.

1085
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:54,160
Right.

1086
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,800
Like most of them were legitimately doing this.

1087
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,480
But there's a little, over time, when they're buying it again

1088
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,080
and more people are buying and more people are buying,

1089
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,240
that's when they're really getting to be big, big records.

1090
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:08,160
That's fucking wild.

1091
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:08,720
Yeah.

1092
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:09,360
Holy shit.

1093
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:10,160
Different time.

1094
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,600
But they weren't counting radio plays.

1095
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,920
Like radio plays are like kind of like streaming plays,

1096
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,200
except for we can do it on demand.

1097
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,000
But it's, you know, just think about how many times

1098
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,560
something was played on a radio, but maybe the album wasn't bought.

1099
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,720
The radio is a different royalty than like a streaming, isn't it?

1100
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:25,760
It depends on the country.

1101
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:27,200
Of course.

1102
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:27,760
Right.

1103
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,400
So yeah, it literally just depends on the country.

1104
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,200
So I think they're gonna butcher this, but I think in the US,

1105
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:42,480
we're like one of the only countries that forgot if it was the performer

1106
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,480
or if it was the original songwriter,

1107
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,840
but one of them doesn't get paid for radio play in the US.

1108
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:49,920
Not like legally, they're not required.

1109
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,920
It's because it's a different kind of royalty.

1110
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,920
Yeah, but in different countries, it's, so that's the thing.

1111
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:55,200
Every single country is different.

1112
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:55,760
Yeah.

1113
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:02,720
Well, I think what it is on the radio, I think it's considered a performance royalty.

1114
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,560
And then because if you're the performer,

1115
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,240
and then like a mechanical royalty, I don't know.

1116
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:09,360
James would know.

1117
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,320
Yeah, this is where I feel really bad that I don't have this on the top of my head

1118
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,400
because usually I'm really on it with royalties.

1119
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,080
But with radio, it's really interesting because you have radio

1120
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:23,760
and then you have terrestrial radio like Sirius XM and shit like that.

1121
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:24,240
Right.

1122
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:26,320
And they pay different amounts.

1123
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,000
There's different deals negotiated with them.

1124
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,160
And then now you have like some offers where,

1125
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,840
like in-store playlists are having different ways to be monetized.

1126
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,960
Again, depending on the country and like what product they're getting.

1127
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,640
But yeah, it's kind of all over the place.

1128
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,960
It's really insane, actually.

1129
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,400
But I think also, I don't know.

1130
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,640
It's just radio has lost so much.

1131
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,400
I mean, they're building, they're making cars without radios at this point.

1132
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,240
So it's like, are they?

1133
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:56,800
Oh yeah.

1134
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,320
Well, they got rid of CD players and things like that.

1135
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,120
Got rid of CD players.

1136
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,080
They're getting rid of radio.

1137
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:01,120
Really?

1138
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,080
Really getting rid of radio?

1139
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:02,720
Yeah.

1140
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:03,120
Interesting.

1141
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:03,440
I saw.

1142
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:05,360
I mean, I don't listen to the radio.

1143
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,320
I wonder if it was like Volvo or something.

1144
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,080
Unless it's a satellite or my phone dies.

1145
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:08,880
Yeah, they'll do, yeah.

1146
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:09,600
Yeah, right.

1147
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,520
Or if like it's a sports game or something, maybe.

1148
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,440
But it's like they're losing market share everywhere

1149
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,560
and people are arguing about getting their pay for that.

1150
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,280
But it's like, why the fuck does it matter?

1151
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,320
Like it's just invest in somewhere where it's making money.

1152
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,680
Like get royalties from YouTube, get royalties from Instagram and Facebook.

1153
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,520
That's what I'm really excited about is like all of these social platforms

1154
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,360
popping up and actually garnering deals for royalties

1155
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,640
for all of these different microplacements on like little ads or whatever.

1156
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:37,840
Like that's really exciting.

1157
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,320
So when people talk about radio, I'm like, I don't give a fuck

1158
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,920
because these tracks aren't going to get on the radio anyways.

1159
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,920
So, you know, I don't know.

1160
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,000
It's cool to see all of these different big tech companies finally getting cornered.

1161
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:51,920
That's really exciting.

1162
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:52,960
I'm very excited about that.

1163
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,520
Because that's the new, you know, instead of looking at a TV,

1164
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,560
you're looking at Facebook.

1165
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,240
Instead of looking at a TV, you're on Instagram.

1166
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:01,760
Instead of looking at a TV.

1167
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,760
My kids don't watch TV at all.

1168
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:04,160
Yeah.

1169
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:05,760
My parents, they don't watch TV.

1170
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:06,640
They watch YouTube.

1171
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,360
My parents, this was wild.

1172
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:10,880
They got rid of their cable.

1173
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,000
They got YouTube TV.

1174
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,120
The same with my parents.

1175
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:13,520
Right.

1176
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,560
I'm like, you're the ones that are supposed to keep it.

1177
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:16,960
Yeah.

1178
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:17,920
These companies.

1179
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,520
Well, how long did you have a home phone?

1180
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:20,400
Right.

1181
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,760
Like a physical phone.

1182
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,160
That's a fucking thing, right?

1183
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,400
Those are still a thing.

1184
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:27,440
Wild.

1185
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:27,920
Yeah.

1186
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:28,480
I love it.

1187
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,600
So yeah, it's kind of there's a lot of really interesting things

1188
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,840
that are happening that are making it easier for everybody to make a lot of money.

1189
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,520
So I'm excited that's happening.

1190
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,960
I think that might be a good place to call it for today.

1191
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:43,200
Yeah.

1192
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:44,080
I think that's good.

1193
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:44,480
Great.

1194
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:45,200
All right.

1195
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:45,440
Cool.

1196
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,480
That does it for this episode of the Cutting Through Podcast.

1197
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,320
My name is Elliott Towsley.

1198
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,520
Thank you so much for tuning in and supporting the show.

1199
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,520
Believe it or not, aside from sending me money,

1200
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,840
the best way that you can support the show is by subscribing

1201
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:10,880
and rating the podcast on your favorite streaming platform.

1202
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:16,480
And send us your questions about what type of topics you would like us to cover next.

1203
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,320
My name is Elliott Towsley.

1204
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:23,360
You can find me on Instagram at Elliott.Towsley or check out my company,

1205
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:29,360
Denovo Agency, where we can help entertainers and music businesses promote themselves online.

1206
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,600
This has been the Cutting Through Podcast.

1207
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:41,280
Don't forget to subscribe and we will see you next time.